I agree with this 100%

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Re: I agree with this 100%

Post by jb »

Hoblit wrote: I think that maybe our toilet needs to be flushed so another set of ideas can use the bathroom. Hopefully the next guest doesn't shit all over us.
Ha, I love that. I don't completely agree, but it's a great quote!

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Re: I agree with this 100%

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fluffy wrote:
Billy's Little Trip wrote:The first order of business is to get money out of politics. This country is now under the control of billionaires, not the people. To overturn Citizens United, we need 3/4 of the states to all agree to change the law. It's happening now with numerous groups. As mentioned, I'm a member of Wolf-Pac. (no spam) and it takes numbers to make things happen.
Yep, that's the biggest thing that needs to happen, and also probably the hardest - which congressperson is going to want to just walk away from those millions of sweet reelection campaign dollars and SuperPAC funds that can be "reallocated" without oversight?
I have faith in our younger generation. I know it doesn't look promising when we watch the things the media feeds us. But I really believe there is a lot more substance in the millennials than just their intrigue with the Kardashians. (I'm bad at examples when I'm thinking about the point I'm trying to make)
Young students looking at a law and political career to make their mark in the world. Sure, some will think of the money they can make, but I'm seeing very passionate people that really want to make a change. It's these gen Y people that are going to help change things in this country. We have more and more people taking a scientific approach, seeing the harms of religions and comfortably siding with agnosticism and atheism. I'm all for people believing in what floats their boat, but religion is one less thing to cloud decision making.
I saw one of the new senators elected in November in an interview, when asked, what he plans on doing to improve our economy, he said he's not sure, but he will follow the bible for the answer. All I could think is how fucked we are now. And Joni Ernst getting elected because she used to castrate pigs and plans to trim pork in Washington. Not to mention her speech about how she carries a gun and would use it to stop the government if needed. Just WOW!

So yes, I do think our younger generations going into politics will see the things playing out now and that's where real change in politics is going to happen. They won't play the game because they know they can fight the game. A perfect example is Elizabeth Warren. She is a great role model for the Gen Y and gen Z that see what's happening at lightning speed these days on the internet. Republicans lie and in days if not hours, their shit is debunked and they are like deer in the headlights when the upcoming gen Y reporter puts them on the spot. It's great! Michael Grimm anyone? A young reporter and his camera man keeping the camera rolling while Grimm threatens his life. Yes, the future looks bright if you ask me. :)

Bottom line and to answer your question, fluf. The old will die off or go away. The new will want an even playing field. More equality because of racial and religious diversity. Corruption will be caught on tape and the problems that plague us will no longer be in the shadows.

Which, by the way, fits with Hoblit's quote quite well, lol.
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Re: I agree with this 100%

Post by Märk »

jb wrote:
Hoblit wrote: I think that maybe our toilet needs to be flushed so another set of ideas can use the bathroom. Hopefully the next guest doesn't shit all over us.
Ha, I love that. I don't completely agree, but it's a great quote!

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Re: I agree with this 100%

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Billy's Little Trip wrote:
fluffy wrote:
Billy's Little Trip wrote:The first order of business is to get money out of politics. This country is now under the control of billionaires, not the people. To overturn Citizens United, we need 3/4 of the states to all agree to change the law. It's happening now with numerous groups. As mentioned, I'm a member of Wolf-Pac. (no spam) and it takes numbers to make things happen.
Yep, that's the biggest thing that needs to happen, and also probably the hardest - which congressperson is going to want to just walk away from those millions of sweet reelection campaign dollars and SuperPAC funds that can be "reallocated" without oversight?
I have faith in our younger generation. [...]
Yeah, I think all in all my feelings are like yours, except I don't have faith so much as guarded optimism. Which is why I don't call for anarchy or a sudden overthrow/upheaval/revolution - I don't think our government is broken, it's just sick and needs some time to heal.
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Re: I agree with this 100%

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So when is a good time to stop being optimistic, when they decide to just get rid of the facade of freedom and go full-on slave nation police state?
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Re: I agree with this 100%

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Märk wrote:So when is a good time to stop being optimistic, when they decide to just get rid of the facade of freedom and go full-on slave nation police state?
Do you deep down honestly think that's even possible in the US? I get it, it's fun to watch Alex Jones on Infowars. I do too when he has someone interesting on. It's more because I LOVE conspiracy theories. They help me write because I love creative thinking. I also like to watch Trews with Russel Brand, he's very excitable about wrong wing douche bags and revolutions. But come on, dude. How many time was the earth supposed to end now according to christians? Oh no, Obama wants healthcare reform...END OF DAYS...END OF DAYS!!!!!
We have teenage hacktivists that can throw a huge wrench into any hate group's master plan as long as they have enough rootbeer, hotpockets and pretzels to keep them properly nourished. Just think what professional "Robert Tappan Morris level" hackers could do. (not sure how relevant he is these days. I'm bad at examples, lol)
We have NY cops turning their back on the Mayor because they don't like his policy. What do you think would happen if they were commanded by the mayor or governor to start locking down the citizens, their families, for no reason at all? How far do you think our military would go before they realize they are supporting a dictatorship? Snowden is just one man that was able to say no, this is fucked! What happens when 10,000 Snowdens say, no fucking way, and start shutting shit down?

A slave nation police state is just not realistically possible in this country. Now, a multi-state anti-gov militant group is more likely, if you want something to be paranoid about. If that happens, I can almost bet it'll be financed by the tea party........
....because they are "true patriots". [sic]
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Re: I agree with this 100%

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"Slave Nation Police State" is the name of my next album. Face it though, y'all couldn't overthrow your corrupt, tyrannical government if your lives depended on it. ;)
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Re: I agree with this 100%

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Märk wrote:"Slave Nation Police State" is the name of my next album. Face it though, y'all couldn't overthrow your corrupt, tyrannical government if your lives depended on it. ;)
Well, maybe not overthrow the gov. But there are ways to remove the bad elements to make our gov non tyrannical.
When it becomes illegal for a politician to except a donation from the original money source for more than a new donation limit is set at, that will be a start. IE: The Koch brothers filter money through multiple non profit organizations, and those organization make donations to political campaigns. But the Kochs make it very clear it's coming from them and the recipient of those donations damn well better answer the phone when they call and need a favor. That's a loop hole that needs to be sealed up.

When it becomes illegal for a lobbyist to give gifts and special treatment to a political party or politician, that will change the the congressional landscape toot-sweet.

When transparency becomes law for every dime that comes in from outside sources, we'll see the money trail, who's buying politicians and what the politician is giving their boss in exchange for their investment.

Basically, where is the money coming from Lebowski?
"Oh hi Chris Christie, did David Koch give you a free ticket to sit in his very expensive sky booth at this Cowboys game? Yes? Ok, I'm afraid you'll have to come with me" And throw that corrupt POS in the poky. Oh hey, a gov seat just opened up in New Jersey. One down, a shit load to go.
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Re: I agree with this 100%

Post by Hoblit »

Billy's Little Trip wrote:
Märk wrote:"Slave Nation Police State" is the name of my next album. Face it though, y'all couldn't overthrow your corrupt, tyrannical government if your lives depended on it. ;)
Well, maybe not overthrow the gov. But there are ways to remove the bad elements to make our gov non tyrannical.
When it becomes illegal for a politician to except a donation from the original money source for more than a new donation limit is set at...
Except that isn't going to happen. As it is, recent history shows that those introducing law are trying to seal this up further by making it non-required to divulge the identity of those sources.

You can vote those guys out but the next guys aren't going to be any better or are more of the same.

OVERTHROW is a word that can be (wait for it) thrown around, but whatever it takes for things to change may be construed to that very term. Whether or not guns are involved.
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Re: I agree with this 100%

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Hoblit wrote:You can vote those guys out but the next guys aren't going to be any better or are more of the same.
You are forgetting the other option. They can be asked to resign, step down or just get removed if the evidence is too much to deny.
Just recently. Michael Grimm pleaded guilty of felony tax evasion. This was the 4th count in a 20 count indictment brought against him for improper use of campaign funds.
Rick Renzi was found guilty on 17 of 32 counts against him June 12, 2013, including wire fraud, conspiracy, extortion, racketeering, money laundering and making false statements to insurance regulators.

Greed is a human trait that will always turn on a person at some point. Just think of how many haven't been caught yet. Pretty soon they'll be tightening the screws on Citizens United and dark money. The question is, how much damage will occur before these laws are overturned? And how long will it take to undo the damage?
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Re: I agree with this 100%

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Billy's Little Trip wrote:
Hoblit wrote:You can vote those guys out but the next guys aren't going to be any better or are more of the same.
You are forgetting the other option. They can be asked to resign, step down or just get removed if the evidence is too much to deny.
...The question is, how much damage will occur before these laws are overturned? And how long will it take to undo the damage?
Not forgetting, I just have no confidence in that option. Despite your example.

How much damage will occur and how long will it take to undo the damage?

That isn't THE question.

Because there is very little evidence that there will be any stop to it and no guarantee that it will ever be undone. Our government rarely gives up any power it obtains.
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Re: I agree with this 100%

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Hoblit wrote:Not forgetting, I just have no confidence in that option. Despite your example.
....Because there is very little evidence that there will be any stop to it and no guarantee that it will ever be undone. Our government rarely gives up any power it obtains.
I guess I'm a bit more optimistic than you.

Here's another example of how things can change. Right now it seems to me that it's the GOP and far right that's really benefiting from unlimited donation and dark money. Don't get me wrong, dems are too, just not at the same level. If all of a sudden corporations that could benefit from left wing support and billionaire money started pouring in to dem campaigns, guess who will start petitioning to get money out of politics? When the shoe is on the other foot, heads will explode.

And it's somewhat possible over the next two years. Think about it. Right now republicans have both houses. Everything is going to go in their favor for as long as they have the majority. The more right wing you go, the more they hate green energy. Seriously, a centrist republican is kind of ok, but I have christian conservative customers that despise green energy so much, they'd rather continue paying higher electric bills than their neighbor with solar electric panels, just so they don't have to admit that climate change just might have a little to do with man made pollution. It's nuts!
Okay, so with that said, the BIG donors like the Koch brothers that have paid a half billion in campaign donations, climate denier groups funding, etc, want to start getting payback of their investments. They already have the majority, so the cash flow slows down.
But we have the corporations that are really pushing for green energy over the next decade. They want municipality cooperation, they want liberal progressive support. Now the billionaires on the other side of the climate coin go to work. They need those minority dems in the house to get tough. They need to sway the centrist repubs. They need to spend money for anti-coal and anti-oil propaganda. The lobbyists will start working over time and when those pro-climate and green energy corporation dollars start to push the progressive candidate campaigns, the GOP will start to get a taste of their own medicine.
That's when the negotiations will start to over turn citizens united.

Two wrongs don't make a right. But it will give everyone a chance to realize how important balance really is. Clean and dirty energy will have to coexist until alternative sources are fool proof and affordable. Believe me, when Tesla releases their Model 3 in 2017, which is said to retail at around 35k, I'm getting one. I want it NOW! ....but I digress.
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Re: I agree with this 100%

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Billy's Little Trip wrote:
Hoblit wrote:Not forgetting, I just have no confidence in that option. Despite your example.
....Because there is very little evidence that there will be any stop to it and no guarantee that it will ever be undone. Our government rarely gives up any power it obtains.
I guess I'm a bit more optimistic than you.

Here's another example of how things can change. Right now it seems to me that it's the GOP and far right that's really benefiting from unlimited donation and dark money. Don't get me wrong, dems are too, just not at the same level. If all of a sudden corporations that could benefit from left wing support and billionaire money started pouring in to dem campaigns, guess who will start petitioning to get money out of politics? When the shoe is on the other foot, heads will explode.
I don't think I need to remind you that a Democrat won the last two presidential elections, in (large) part due to campaign contribution money.

I'm surprised by your optimism that Democrats would do any better in regards to campaign funding laws.
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Re: I agree with this 100%

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Like I said, dems get their fair share. My point was, when campaign money starts pouring into progressives pushing for green energy, it will level the field opposing those that refuse to believe that mankind has any impact on climate change.
Dirty energy lobbyists (right wing) vs Clean energy lobbyists (left wing)
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Re: I agree with this 100%

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Billy's Little Trip wrote:Like I said, dems get their fair share. My point was, when campaign money starts pouring into progressives pushing for green energy, it will level the field opposing those that refuse to believe that mankind has any impact on climate change.
Dirty energy lobbyists (right wing) vs Clean energy lobbyists (left wing)
Let me extend my understanding of that. Even though I am not as optimistic, I can appreciate that point of view.

Reminds me of the sentiment here:
JoelPett_ClimateSummitHoaxForNothing_120709.jpg
JoelPett_ClimateSummitHoaxForNothing_120709.jpg (28.24 KiB) Viewed 6259 times
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Re: I agree with this 100%

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...Statists :roll:
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Re: I agree with this 100%

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@ Hobz. That pic is perfect. Also, the longer we are dependent on coal and oil, the longer we put off alternative renewable energy research and development.
Think about the first VCR. It was big and bulky with big tapes. [then a guy got a light bulb over his head] Then they started slimming down. [then another guy got a light bulb over his head] Then we got DVD players. [then another guy got a light bulb over his head] Then bluray players. [then another guy got a light bulb over his head] Now we can stream movies in hi-def right to our TV. (yes, I give bad examples!)
Bottom line. Until we can put these renewable greener energy methods into practical use, people won't know what they are and how they work exactly. No light bulbs lighting up over people's heads. Once these systems are in regular use, they will evolve, get better and cheaper.

Example: The first off grid solar power systems I saw go on a residential home was about 15-20 years ago. The system was around 25k and the panels were huge and she needed a shit load of panels to make enough energy to run her household. She is a scientist and into this stuff, so money wasn't an issue for her when she designed and calculated the system she needed. I remember one side of her roof that was facing the sun filled with panels and the other side had staggered brackets that tilted up panels to face the sun. Basically her entire roof was a solar grid.
Now they have panels that are half the size and can produce more power. That's just been in the past 15-20 years with a system that was in very few house holds. Now it's becoming much more affordable and I have tons of customers getting off grid systems. The company I do business with offers a 20 year lease program that not only does all of the warranty and maintenance on their systems, but you still have all rights to the over produced power to sell back to your power company.

I just read a couple months back that one of the Japanese car companies, I think it was Mitzubishi, has a photovoltaics cell about a quarter of the size of the panels in use now that will produce twice the output. So yeah, pretty exciting stuff afoot at the circle K, yo.

@Mark. It's better than the regressive alternative. :D
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Re: I agree with this 100%

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Billy's Little Trip wrote:@ Hobz.

...

@Mark. It's better than the regressive alternative. :D
Thank you, and I completely skipped the blue-ray phase and went directly to streaming. (But mainly because my in-laws gave me a effing great TV and I bought my wife a Google Chrome book with HDMI output and my internet is basically free.)

Also, I want to note that my father in-law has so many solar panels on his house and garage that some months he actually gains credit from the power company. (And this is to be forgotten in my next point because local government gave him a rebate when making his house so energy efficient as an incentive) He also drives a Chevy Volt.

But I want to point out that you don't have to rely on the government in order to move forward with technology. It definitely helps, but it is not necessary.

I think the problem is that some people can't comprehend (not an insult but an actual use of the correct term) this in that our government seems to be the structure everyone feels is necessary for practical reasons, giving in to the dependence on it. I'm merely stating that I don't think it is nearly as necessary as we are lead to believe.

With that said, Mark could be on to something.

Or his line of reasoning is the pinnacle of failure in buying into NO structure at all.

I think the answer lies somewhere in between, and I don't pretend to know what that answer is.

But that is what makes this a discussion and not an argument :)
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Re: I agree with this 100%

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Hoblit wrote:But I want to point out that you don't have to rely on the government in order to move forward with technology. It definitely helps, but it is not necessary.....

....I think the answer lies somewhere in between, and I don't pretend to know what that answer is.
Two points here.
First. No, we don't have to rely on the gov to move forward. Elon Musk is a perfect example of that. BUT, we rely on representatives of the gov to not put a brick wall in front of us while trying to pass that technology to the people.

Because I was talking about residential solar electricity, I'll make my point with that.
States will give credits to people that purchase energy efficient household appliances, etc. This includes solar (pv) electricity systems. They can also sell back stored power that is not needed. Awesome. A great incentive to reduce carbon emissions and move forward with alternative renewable energy.

Now here comes the special interest, lobbyists for the coal industry. They see their annual sales are dropping because people are making their own electricity. They are donating to the local gov to not regulate them so they can keep their dirty power in full production because it's cheaper to pay off politicians than it is to make the power plants operate cleaner. So now the Koch brothers are saying, what the fuck? We are paying off these politicians and yet they are allowing city residence to make their OWN electricity and bypass us completely? Fuck that, we paid good money to bribe that state rep and he best fix this problem toot sweet!

So along come the corrupt shit reps, like in Oklahoma, to throw up a roadblock. The citizens want to bypass the local municipality and make their own electricity? Fine, then we will pass a new bill to fine you for being green. We'll start a whole propaganda campaign to shame Eco-conscious people and call them free-riders.

So no, we don't need the gov to move forward with technology. But we need the gov to not stand in the way of new technology. Is it any surprise that the anti-green activists are conservative groups? Is it any surprise that the states that have a gov with an (R) next to his/her name want to penalize their citizens for going green? Is it any surprise that our newly elected senate leader, Mitch (the bitch) McConnell (R), and his family corporation that is a major import/exporter of coal and one of the largest shipping companies in the world, said one of his priorities as the new leader will be to eliminate the EPA? You know, the Environmental Protection Agency. Those pesky fuckers that make it so people like McConnell and the Koch brothers can't just freely pollute every lake, river and stream in America and cause devastating climate change that may be irreversible. (deep breath....serenity now...serenity now!) Okay, I'll be fine. :D

Second, I mentioned the gray area between black and white, earlier in this thread. And nor do I pretend to know the answers. I just know it doesn't have to be one way or the other. There is a common ground in-between "somewhere".
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Re: I agree with this 100%

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Hey, I have no idea what the solution is either, but I know, with every fiber of my being, that the way it is now is all fucked up. And it's not going to change without bloodshed.
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Re: I agree with this 100%

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Märk wrote:And it's not going to change without bloodshed.
So, there's no common ground? Then you're selfish. You'll never be satisfied, even after bloodshed. So why would I engage with you? Without me engaging with you, all you have is a one sided protest. I can just go about my day enjoying my life and let you have your tantrum until you fizzle out. Life will go on, bud.
No disrespect, but history proves that anarchy is not sustainable. Anarchy, in and of itself, is a contradiction. You fight against the establishment while making a new establishment so others can't be anti-establishment against your establishment. ....and so on and so on. Why?

edit: I wrote this yesterday and noticed I made it sound like a Mark vs BLT example. That's wasn't my intention. I was giving a scenario of one ideology vs another ideology. The "you vs I" thing was just for a literary example. ;)
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Re: I agree with this 100%

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That statement was an observable fact, not my opinion. Do you think the military is there for our protection alone? It's mainly there to protect the government. As for normal soldiers, etc refusing to turn against their own people, it makes no difference because the main focus of the military for several years now has been unmanned drones, etc. Simply put, they don't need warm bodies to defend their fortress, trillions of dollars has been poured into making sure they are secure against overthrow. Even a very well organized militia wouldn't stand a chance. The gov can basically do whatever the hell they want, and what are you going to do about it? Cast your feeble, ineffectual ballot at the next election? Jeb Bush showed us that voting is a facade too. Do you honestly think they care what the people want? Really? Really?!
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