Dream Theater!

[Reist]

prog riffs in all the wrong places in great songs = brilliant.

prog rock w/out songs = laaaaame.

odd times and syncopated insanity should be another tool in the box to wake listeners up and give them something to unfold over time. there's no difference between an uncompelling one-chord song and an uncompelling 10,000 chord song.

True, but odd time signatures should definitely be used wisely ... I've found in my progressive listening, I've found that more basic time signatures work better at powerful moments ... even a 5/4, 4/4, 2/4, etc. I found on the 24 minute epic Octavarium, the most powerful moment was a very strange time signature, and I find it hard to follow. Soloing on weird time signatures is cool ... like the many, many 19/16 grooves that Mike Portnoy pulls out, and definitely can mix up songs and add so much to them, but I think those strange time signatures definitely have a time and place and should be used responsibly.

[himynameisntmark]

You don't have 'none of them. Dream Theater suck' as an option.

Not everyone likes the same music. Dream Theater doesn't suck, you just don't like them. I'm not a huge fan myself but I would never say they suck.

[WeaselSlayer]

Why not. They do.

[himynameisntmark]

Why not. They do.

The six million plus people in the world who buy their cds and dvds would disagree with you on that.

[WeaselSlayer]

You're right. They're fucking stupid.

[himynameisntmark]

Ok. Six million people are wrong and you are right. Got it.

[WeaselSlayer]

Six million people are wrong, and everyone else on the planet is right. Get your facts straight, dude, and don't come at people with this "Open your mind up, only positive opinions are valid" peacenik fucking nose-in-the-air bullshit.

Dream Theater, out. The Fucking Champs, in.

[j$]

Not everyone likes the same music. Dream Theater doesn't suck, you just don't like them. I'm not a huge fan myself but I would never say they suck.

I didn't say they suck. I merely requested an option to that effect so that the poll was more representative. However, popularity can never, ever be equated with being "good" - obviously, while there are some good bands that are popular. there are also some popular bands that aren't.

Of course all are always welcome not to agree with my opinions - but as a direct result of your post, I have now been convinced that Dream Theater do suck, by dint of their fans. nice one

[Reist]

Guys. Stop hating. Mike Portnoy would not approve.

[himynameisntmark]

Ha. I am not a fan of Dream Theater. I got Live Scenes From New York and I don't like any of it. For that you can't call me a fan

[Reist]

You know what's funny? I wrote this post in February of last year and was saying crap like - 'I've really grown as a songwriter' and 'as a musician' etc. Don't get me wrong - I still like Dream Theater, but I sucked at songwriting and playing when I wrote this. Heh.

[Justincombustion]

Pick up a cd. You won't be dissapointed.

I think the reason that they aren't more popular than they are is that their style of music does not appeal to most people. I just DL'ed a bunch of tracks, and I did not like a single one.

Seconded! Man, what crap, they're like Queensryche only WORSE. If you can believe that!
And yes, it's a fact they are terrible, I've seen it proven mathmatically.

[Project-D]

Think about the 1st movement of the Moonlight Sonata by Beethoven, simple melody, not very varied rhythmically, yet everybody knows it, and it's just an amazing piece in my opinion, although it's kind of become a cliché to evoke sadness. Now, take the first movement of the 5th symphony (or the last movement of the 9th, "Ode to Joy"). Infinitely more complex in scope, yet at the core, simple and elegant. The da da da dum rhtythm in the 5th is carried by different instruments throughout the whole piece, and that's what you remember after all the string flourishes, and horn calls. Strip away all that stuff and that rhythm is still drilled into your brain, because it's unifying the whole thing.

Most (not all - you should never speak in generalities...) prog rock to me, is incessant self absorbed noodling, strip that away, and you've got nothing except some pretentious lyrics. I will confess though, that I'm still a fan of Rush up until the "Hold Your Fire" album. I can't explain it, it just is.

I'm not a huge fan of grunge but I think it did something good, it brought songwriting and the "band" format back. It seemed like all the "rawk" songs in the late eighties were just vehicles for guitar solos. I think grunge was a rebellion against that. Maybe prog rock is a function of youth, I find that as I get older, my tastes in music have become simpler.

[Reist]

Project D - I think you should listen to Genesis - Wind and Wuthering especially. Good songwriting, not just complicated riffs for the sake of complicated riffs. If you don't like that, then I can finally accept that you hate all prog except for Rush.

Justincombustion - I'm surprised a drummer doesn't like DT, but hey! You can't win them all.

[frankie big face]

Justincombustion - I'm surprised a drummer doesn't like DT, but hey! You can't win them all.

It might surprise you to know that some drummers actually care about the songs and don't view the other members of the band as melodic support for their drum solos. Some drummers use only one bass drum and some don't even know what crotales are. Some drummers even get Ringo Starr.

Your comment to Justin is like saying to an accomplished sax player "I'm surprised a sax player doesn't like Kenny G, but hey!" Not everyone is obsessed with technical expertise. And technique at the expense of a good song is the biggest sin in all of music.

Thank you for the opportunity to rant and rave. I am a recovered progoholic, by the way. I believe there is still hope for you.

[Justincombustion]

Actually I may have been slightly harsh. Buuuuttt, thing is: they act like they should rock, people say they rock...but they just don't "kick it out" the way I like.
In a convertable, cruising the PCH, I just couldn't see that playing. However, good technical music WITH some Ummph would be early Rush, which I do like quite a bit. (same convertible scene with "Red Barchetta" (sp?) up to 11)
Plus one time someone said something that made me really not like DT: "Man you need to listen to the words."

[WeaselSlayer]

I've just been being sort of glib in this thread, but I want to reflect on something. Complacency is dangerous. Shutting up about what is bad just because not everyone agrees with you causes serious inertia in society. I mean, all valid artistic movements were a response to stuff that people thought sucked. The French New Wave, punk, Dadaism, all of it. Had Francois Truffaut said, "You know, French cinema really sucks, but I'm not going to talk about it because other people sure like it and who am I to step on their toes?" He wouldn't have made 400 Blows and modern cinema would have been set back several years. So, don't take some dumbshit attitude like "well, I shan't criticize, I shouldn't like to upset people!" Take an attitude that allows for acceptance of stuff that just might not be your thing, but never hinders your ability to confront the real criminals of music and all other art forms.

[jimtyrrell]

Interesting topic!

It may be true that all valid artistic movements were a response to stuff that people thought sucked. But I doubt it. I think this is a factor in a good many "artistic movements", and in the examples you give, it plays a notable large part.

More importantly, though, it is certainly NOT true that all responses to stuff that people think sucks are artistic movements. There are definitely unconstructive negative opinions, and they should be valued accordingly. Not completely worthless, but not worthy of deep regard either.


I don't think I've ever heard Dream Theater. I'm kind of afraid to, now. I do like some prog (like early Genesis stuff) though.

[WeaselSlayer]

There's a huge difference between a useless, destructive sentence like "The Beatles are fuckin' gay, dude" and negatively responding to meatheaded guitar-store-rock that actively dilutes the musical community. Also, the examples I mentioned all share common roots in that every facet of each WAS that they were responding to something they didn't agree with. It wasn't just a factor, it was the whole reason they came into existence.

To cap all this off, I'm not arguing that negative responses are artistic movements. I'm arguing that neglecting to respond negatively to anything results in and has precedent for resulting in the following: shitty music, bad movies, facism, war, the Holocaust, government-supported bigotry, sponsor-controlled media, blah blah etc. It's a problem in no matter what field we discuss.

[Reist]

It might surprise you to know that some drummers actually care about the songs and don't view the other members of the band as melodic support for their drum solos. Some drummers use only one bass drum and some don't even know what crotales are. Some drummers even get Ringo Starr.

To be honest, I'm a huge Beatles fan, and really look up to Ringo in how he added to the great music being made. I'll also have you know that Mike Portnoy is a big fan of all kinds of classic rock and has been part of multiple projects covering the music of the Beatles, The Who, Led Zeppelin. He knows how to play in the way you speak of - which is a great way of playing - but he also likes to challenge himself with Dream Theater, although he sits back and plays in the context of the music in his other side projects. Also - crotales are cool.

[jimtyrrell]

There's a huge difference between a useless, destructive sentence like "The Beatles are fuckin' gay, dude" and negatively responding to meatheaded guitar-store-rock that actively dilutes the musical community. Also, the examples I mentioned all share common roots in that every facet of each WAS that they were responding to something they didn't agree with. It wasn't just a factor, it was the whole reason they came into existence.

To cap all this off, I'm not arguing that negative responses are artistic movements. I'm arguing that neglecting to respond negatively to anything results in and has precedent for resulting in the following: shitty music, bad movies, facism, war, the Holocaust, government-supported bigotry, sponsor-controlled media, blah blah etc. It's a problem in no matter what field we discuss.

Agreed. Completely.

[WeaselSlayer]

Righteous.