Wow, you certainly are prescriptivist about where vocal stresses should go.
Thanks for taking on such a daunting challenge! For what it's worth, I like the whiny, effeminite, electronic-bleepy sound, and obviously our tastes in what makes for a good song differs.
On Better Than Before, did you listen to the much-better version on my website? I fixed a lot of the vocal problems in that.
NIGHT TERRORS
I started by listening to the original version of this and laughed at the out of tune uke. I then skipped over to the album version to see if you changed that, and was extremely pleased to hear that you left it out of tune. I love that.
CLOCKwork, not clockWORK
meCHANical TURK, not MECHanICal turk
It's off-kilter on purpose. Consider the subject matter of the song.
EVERYBODY CALM DOWN
Hmmm. I wonder why you chose this to include on an album. The G and C chords are awfully plain, and you never stray from that. Perhaps the idea was to be calming? With nothing much going on harmonically, there needs to be something else to keep me from tuning out, but there really isn’t. So the song gets pretty boring pretty quickly. Here’s an example where you anticipate the beat in the vocals, on “Everything will be alright” at 0:45. The guitar does it too at different places. Really this is a fine song though, just needs a tighter performance and more interesting arrangement. Which you’re very obviously capable of doing.
This was on "Love and Monsters" because it was the title-provider of the album. Because it was about love and monsters. Also apparently you don't know what an A chord sounds like.
SORRY TO INFORM YOU
Of course since you won with this one and got a bunch more votes, you know this one works. Not a coincidence that you tried something completely different with the vocals. It doesn’t make any sense to me why a robot would be singing these lyrics, but whatever, it’s a nice change-up.
It's from the human resources department OF THE FUTURE.
But here’s a great example of a potential lyric improvement: “Miss Marshall’s hair”. It’s MARSHall, not marshALL. You could have chosen any name for the teacher!
Who says "Ms. Marshall" was referring to the teacher? And I'm pretty sure I did stress it as "MARSHall."
Yeah, don't let my snarky response come across as me being unappreciative. I do appreciate your input and am taking it into consideration, even if everything you hate the most about my music is what I like best about it.
Jim, I don't know if you're still offering to do these, but I'd like to propose that you review my most recent two full-length albums, An Air of Legitimacy and Happiness is Subjective. They're both on my website, which is down right now (Mike Lamb is helping to get online at a different address in the near future), and my SoundCloud page, which is not down. https://soundcloud.com/joneric
"Warren Zevon would be proud." -Reve Mosquito
Stages, an album of about dealing with loss, anxiety, and grieving a difficult year, now available on Bandcamp and all streaming platforms! https://jonporobil.bandcamp.com/album/stages
Stages, an album of about dealing with loss, anxiety, and grieving a difficult year, now available on Bandcamp and all streaming platforms! https://jonporobil.bandcamp.com/album/stages
I'm completely new to SongFight, but came across this thread and am feeling inspired. Reading the in-depth commentary gave me a lot of ideas for my own songwriting/composing/mixing, so you're helping more people than just your, er, victim. Thanks for writing.
Generic wrote:Jim, I don't know if you're still offering to do these, but I'd like to propose that you review my most recent two full-length albums, An Air of Legitimacy and Happiness is Subjective. They're both on my website, which is down right now (Mike Lamb is helping to get online at a different address in the near future), and my SoundCloud page, which is not down. https://soundcloud.com/joneric
Sure Jon, I'd be happy to. I'm finishing up Berkeley Social Scene right now, but you'll be next up.
signboy wrote:Holy Crap. Props to Jim for this endeavour. Such a huge amount of time & effort invested in the individuals of Songfight! All three thumbs up, dude.
Seriously, I'm getting way more out of the endeavor than any of my victims.
BSS has been patient in my takingtoolongiosity. I hope to have their reviews done today. Take special note of the verb in that last sentence. Jon Eric next.
Then my hoped-for Songfight blog will open. Again with the verb. Which is in this last instance, technically an adjective.
BSS is a good band. Very nice tight sound, catchy hooks, lots of variation in instrumentation but not too much, ambitious arrangements, tons to like.
There's one big problem that kind of runs throughout the entire catalog, and that is the lead vocal. I don't know the JohnPaulGeorges of who is singing what, or if multiple people are writing, or if the composer always sings lead on his own song or what, but I really like how you give different people the lead vocal. Unfortunately, not everyone has the vocal chops to do the band and songs justice.
The guy who sings lead on Epitaph, VCR, EM-50, etc., well, I'll be regrettably blunt. Dude, you're off-key a lot, and it's bringing the whole band down. Sorry to have to be so one way about it, but it's a big detriment.
Couple ways I might fix it. I tell this to people over and over. Sing a lot of takes of every line until you get one that's just great. Then, if your ethics and pocketbook can handle it, don't be afraid to subtly auto-tune here and there where you love the performance but weren't quite on the note. In general, I would spend a lot more attention to getting the lead vocal much stronger. The band is great, and is being seriously held back. Another way to improve is to make sure your lyrics aren't fighting against their tunes. Syllabic placement is SO underrated as a simple way to make any song better. It's not a rampant problem with BSS, but I hear it occasionally, and it isn't doing those lead vocals any favors. Even an Eddie Vedder will sound awkward singing awkward lyrics. As much effort as musicians place on their instruments, when it comes down to it, people are listening to a singer primarily, and the band is usually still considered backup; it's human nature. Spend more time getting the vocal right than anything else in the song.
I'm writing this summary after having written most of the individual song reviews and noticed how I kept saying this over and over, so I'm going to go back and take some of that repetition out and instead tell you that I'm not mentioning it every time, but it's usually the biggest problem for me.
Second big issue is the hard panning of the two lead guitars. It's distracting on headphones. (I almost never ever pan to 0% or 100%.) The second problem with doing that is that is masks the problem with having two lead guitars in the first place. You don't need them both. Give one guy an acoustic and have him play rhythm (or a tambourine or whatever), and just have one lead electric. And of course, pull them into center, maybe more like 30 and 70. Actually, if you try listening in mono the songs suddenly sound way too thick. The third problem with doing this is that it leaves the drum track totally out to dry, so it comes across a bit raw, and not in a good way.
Songwriting is mostly very good. I love all the completely solid rock hooks in the choruses of the uptempo songs. Lots of songs have interesting key changes. Verses are rarely interesting melodically, but for whatever reason it usually doesn't bother me.
You know, throughout all my listening, I never gave the lyrics much thought at all. Not sure why. I guess that means they're ok. Hardly ever distracting, hardly ever grab my attention either. Sorry, I feel like I'm giving the lyricist the short-shrift here. But I guess the fact that I hardly ever even thought about the lyrics says something. Just what that is, I don't know.
So my overall impression of BSS after all this listening is a very impressed ho-hum. Everybody sounds great. Great tight playing, interesting variation in arrangements while keeping your basic personality in tact. Lead vocals are a problem, and usually too thick, too many competing parts.
Boron Rod
Took me a few listens, but I finally got so I sort of adore this song. Very Stereolab. The dry vocal delivery is just right, and I love the chorus lyrics. This sounds a little like a demo, needs a little high end interest, perhaps make it a little more Devo. Anyway, a favorite. Right out the gate with a terrific number. Except for those minor quibbles, I can't think of anything I'd do differently. (Knowing me though, I'd go overboard with it.)
Epitaph for New York City
This is nicely produced, nicely everything. That's the problem, nothing really stands out. It's hard to continue paying attention. It has a kind of bland sound that is hard to hold onto. Also, lead vocal is sharp and lacks power.
VCR
Lead vocal anticipates the beat. It's a song killer. The whole band is nice and tight, and the drummer is good, but the lead vocal comes in and is ever so slightly ahead of the beat, destroying the groove. I said this about someone else's song in this thread, can't remember which, but you could almost just slide the lead vocal audio track back a tiny bit and it would be right on. I'm also bugged by "reck-LESS" (instead of "RECK-less") and "Theeeee wrong moves". Also song killers. There are a bunch of places in the song where the lead melody hovers on a note that's not in the chord, which would be ok-er if you totally sold the dissonance, but I'm not convinced you know it's there, so it just sounds odd. This song is worth improving though, because it's catchy enough.
The Pleasure of Pain
Vocal is sharp. Except when it's way up high, then it's flat. But I like the attitude it has. Sounds like something right off London Calling. I like how dramatic this song is. The chorus is pretty cool. And there's a lot of stuff going on in the band. A BSS favorite.
Burning Rubber
This has a nice groove. Big vocal problem, see above. The song has a lot of potential with that syncopated guitar hook in the chorus. Listen to the solo section. Way too much competing sound, making a big mushy mess.
Still Tomorrow
This one runs through my head all day even after having heard the rest of the album. The chorus is just great. This is the Clash guy singing, who I think is alright. He's mixed pretty low, and sounds much better when he's Clash-ing, much worse when he's kind of quieter and/or lower. The funky arrangement is killer. Really strong one. What a difference it makes when there is some breathing space in the bass lines. Funks it up totally. Not sure how much mileage the farting sound gets you.
I Wrote a Hit Play
One of my less favorite ones. Kind of a snoozer. Also, I find the tune to be a bit dissonant with the chord changes. I know I mentioned that with VCR too.
This Dirty Cage
Ooh, violin. I'm reminded of the Colin Moulding songs of XTC. The string arrangement is lovely. This one is a keeper, but needs a stronger vocal. Kudos on the recording of those strings too, I know from personal experience how hard that is. The switch to minor for the bridge is nice. I think the snare is too heavy for the delicacy of this song. If I were producing this I'd mute the left and right guitars entirely and put a simple acoustic rhythm guitar low in the mix. It's pretty and the strings carry the day. Don't need much else. Why not have the Boron Rod girl sing harmony?
Elephant
This is pretty nice. I think it's too slow, and too long. I can hear both the drums and the vocals rushing the beat. And it's long and plodding. Perhaps changing up the arrangement after the first bridge, so we have somewhere new to go. Introduce an instrument, perhaps. The key changes between sections is also a bit jarring. Same comment as Dirty Cage, the snare seems a bit too heavy and hot for the song.
One Last Wish
Another slow one with a heavy snare pow-ing in there. In this case, I'd 86 the snare and cymbal crashes entirely. If you have those on their own tracks, try muting them and see how that plays. This is a pretty one. I'm impressed that you guys can do these slow acoustic-y numbers as well as funky ones. This song has a rare composition oddness that keeps me from falling in love with it. Your verse melody has these four little phrases. In the first verse, the second and fourth phrase is the same melody. That repetition of the melodic phrase sounds very awkward. I think the lyric the first time is "No afterwards". Later the lyric is "The fucker I've been". The verse isn't musically satisfying because it goes back to the same melodic phrase. Also, this a little obviously gets too low for the singer.
A Hard Look Back
This one is too low for the singer as well. And the snare is fine in the chorus, but unwelcome in the more delicate verse. I wish the cello wasn't panned so far. This one is really thick. There's the bass and the slap bass thing and the cello, and the keyboard pad, all operating down low, so the song has a preponderance of low stuff going on. Maybe remove the slap bass entirely, pan the regular bass slightly and move the cello toward center. Which creates an imbalance, so you'd have to move the lead guitar in from hard left too. Anyway, it's kind of a sonic mush now. Harmonically it could also benefit from less modal chords, throwing perhaps a C#7 at 1:09 instead of the E chord, for example. Now I'm rewriting the song, but my ear kept wanting the song to spark a bit more. Not a favorite.
Down Is Forward Sinking Deep
The girl's vocal is like a drink of cool water. Again a lot of low-end. Too much. Listen especially during the solo section near the end. If I were producing this track I would speed it up a little bit, maybe like 4-8 bpm is all, and give the bass line a bit more air, some staccato. There's like not a second in this song where the bass isn't heard, and that is tiring my ear. You guys can groove really well, but you seem to be stuck in a plodding slow waltz-y rut most of the second half of this album.
The Businessman
Neat. I like the vocals on this one. I wish the bass was a little funkier, where the pulses were more distinct. The panned guitars are really competing for my attention and I kind of hate that. I just want to bop along with this. Same reason I hate Dixieland jazz, to throw out a completely non-sequitir association. Very Clash as I'm sure you are aware.
The EM-50
Nice to end the album with an upbeat song. Vocals are the big problem, and the hard panning.
Stomach For It
Vocal mixed awfully low. Odd that it sounds like you double-tracked her. Not necessary, but sounds good, and why don't you double track vocals more often? It's distracting that the kick drum registers hard left and right. I wonder what led to that decision. This one is really nice fun pop. Too much going on in the guitars. Have I mentioned that before? You guys can really play those suckers. And so you do. A lot.
Ring Them Bells
Lead vocal sounds kind of muffly. Maybe mixed a bit low, but maybe a bit of reverb would pull her into the mix better. Slick switch up into the solo section at 1:56. And the solo section is pleasantly spare in the arrangement and works great. Less is more, man.
Let's Get Bloody
The songwriting sounds like it wants to be heavy metal. it's cool, but those weird chord changes are the kinds of things I hear really loud and young and angry. With the lead vocal an octave up. Not saying you should do that, just an observation. The vocal is in tune, but I wish it sounded a bit more committed. Has a demo-y feel. What about changing the key entirely so that the lead vocal sits up high in his register, giving him the opportunity to really let go. And it's mixed low again. When that background vocal comes in and they go back and forth like they do it's neat, but I can barely hear it. This one's cool though.
Made to Be Played
Something odd about the mix in this one. It somehow doesn't hang together. It's too obvious it wasn't recorded all at the same time or something. It's a nice change to hear the keyboards take a little center stage, and they're good, so that's fun. Not a favorite. The ubiquitous BSS busy-ness is made even more problematic by the strange mix. And the songwriting isn't to the normal hooky tunefulness I'm used to.
The Rumor Lives Strong
Colin Moulding (of XTC) again strongly reminded of. The big octave jump is arresting and the lead vocal handles it well. And the blend of the lead and backup vocals is super nice. This song has a lot of brave chord changes. Almost a little too brave, I kind of feel like I'm holding on for dear life to keep with it among all the changes (but I of all people have no right to complain of that really). Unlike most of Suntory Time, the slow pace doesn't feel too slow, and the band keeps in the groove well enough to pull it off, so I never thought "this is too slow". Nice one.
Please Stop
I don't know quite why, but this is one of my least favorite. The combination of the piercing lead guitar and the repetitive lead vocal tune kind of get on my nerves. I get that you're trying to mess with the time sig in the chorus when you sing the title, but wow, you REALLY mess with it, so I can't even count it. That kind of takes me out of the groove.
Thanks for doing this! Very insightful and usually right on. The web site with Suntory Time has the line up for each song as well as the lyrics, I suppose I should have told you to look for that there. I gave you 4 songs for each of the 5 vocalists. Here's how they break down:
Erin (the Girl, The drink of water, the good vocalist): Boron Rod, Down is Forward Sinking Deep, Stomach for It, Ring them Bells Sam: I Wrote a Hit Play, This Dirty Cage, Let's Get Bloody, Made to be Played Martin (the Clash Guy): The Pleasure of Pain, Still Tomorrow, The Business Man, Please Stop Ken: VCR, Elephant, A Hard Look Back, The Rumour Lives Strong Glen (Me): Epitaph for NYC, Burning Rubber, One Last Wish, EM-50
As much effort as musicians place on their instruments, when it comes down to it, people are listening to a singer primarily, and the band is usually still considered backup; it's human nature. Spend more time getting the vocal right than anything else in the song.
I take issue with this (surprise surprise, me being the weak vocalist). When I ask someone why they like: Rush, Smashing Pumpkins, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Phish, Red Hot Chilli Peppers, etc... I never hear the response " because of the vocals".
It'd be great to have Erin as the lead singer most of the time, but she is simply too busy.
Thanks again!
Glen
Phillipso, Older Brothers, Semolina Pilchards, Zipline , Thank Glennny for the Frisbee, The Odoriferous Valley, The Worldly Self Assurance, Berkeley Social Scene, Very Gentle Knives, Daddy Bop Swing Set, GUNS, The Kraken Lives, Cavedwellers
As much effort as musicians place on their instruments, when it comes down to it, people are listening to a singer primarily, and the band is usually still considered backup; it's human nature. Spend more time getting the vocal right than anything else in the song.
I take issue with this (surprise surprise, me being the weak vocalist). When I ask someone why they like: Rush, Smashing Pumpkins, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Phish, Red Hot Chilli Peppers, etc... I never hear the response " because of the vocals".
I have to take issue with your issue. While I would agree that, if you phrased it that way, that's what people would say. In those cases the vocals are taken for granted. Because they're in tune and don't distract. Listen to any of those bands and the vocals are right on pitch. If they weren't your ear would immediately go to them.
Imagine a ballet with a famous dancer front and center, and a troupe of tutus behind her. Of course everyone paid money to see the famous soloist, but man, any one of those girls in the back is out of step and she instantly pulls focus no matter how good the solo dancer is.
Jim of Seattle wrote:As much effort as musicians place on their instruments, when it comes down to it, people are listening to a singer primarily, and the band is usually still considered backup; it's human nature. Spend more time getting the vocal right than anything else in the song.
So true. It seems like either something you can sit around resenting or you can just accept it and realign your focus. I am trying to place more and more of my focus on melody, lyrics, and vocals (I realize that sounds strange because of the weird fx I use on my vocals here - but this thing is kind of a side project for me)
I've spent so much time focused on sound (and I still believe that's important - most of the stuff I really love has a great sound along with being great songs) ... it's so key to change your perspective and realize the overriding importance of all aspects of the vocals (melody, lyrics, vocal performance, vocal mix/sound) and I think this is true even in "alternative" music where people might think otherwise.
I love reading your reviews - as someone else stated, I think you can get a lot from them even if they aren't about your own music.
Listen to any of those bands and the vocals are right on pitch. If they weren't your ear would immediately go to them.
okay, point taken.
However I'm very fond of : At the Drive In, Mars Volta, Joan of Arc. Cedric and Tim are very "pitchy" but I love them, I suppose they sell it with attitude much like Martin (our Clash like guy).
The worst offender of of pitch playing for me is Kenny G, he's always sharp to my ear and it drives me crazy.
Then there is Ozzy who is deliberately off pitch so your ear can go to his vocals, and that's his sound.
There's the case of Jon Anderson of Yes fame, the only vocalist I can think of that hits notes sharp and corrects down to them.
How do you reconcile vibrato with "right on pitch"? Does the ideal vibrato have an average pitch of the note? does it only bend up, or only bend down? If I played a guitar lead without bends and vibrato it would sound flat and amateurish. I think it's the same with vocals. I grant you that the end result of my vocals is no where near where they should be. I average about 30 takes, and that's due to time restrictions, could probably use 90.
Please Stop
I don't know quite why, but this is one of my least favorite. The combination of the piercing lead guitar and the repetitive lead vocal tune kind of get on my nerves. I get that you're trying to mess with the time sig in the chorus when you sing the title, but wow, you REALLY mess with it, so I can't even count it. That kind of takes me out of the groove.
Where as you might be baffled at my inability to consistently hit notes on pitch, I am amazed that a musician of your caliber can't count to 5 then count to 4 twice (4 times). I have a regular diet of Zappa and Genesis so I guess a chorus in 13 is no big deal.
Anyway, it was awesome of you to do this epic review! Thanks again!
Phillipso, Older Brothers, Semolina Pilchards, Zipline , Thank Glennny for the Frisbee, The Odoriferous Valley, The Worldly Self Assurance, Berkeley Social Scene, Very Gentle Knives, Daddy Bop Swing Set, GUNS, The Kraken Lives, Cavedwellers
I normally have no problem counting weird signatures. (My "One Beautiful Summer" changes almost every bar.) I went back and re-listened to Please Stop and you're right, it's not a problem at all. For some reason I was thinking you were subdividing individual beats, which would make no sense because how would the band keep together in that case? It's an odd syncopation for sure. And I mean that in a good way. So I retract that completely.
Yeah, Martin sells it with attitude. Kind of a "fuck you I know I'm off pitch and don't care", which is a lot different than "I want to but can't seem to". And I completely agree with you about Kenny G in the microscopic doses I've been able to stomach.
Even Kurt Cobain is mostly on pitch though. A lot of attitudinal rock singer are bending notes all over the place, but at some point in most every note, the correct pitch is landed on. I think that comforts my ear and allows me to enjoy the variation, because at some level I know that the singer knows what the actual note is supposed to be. I guess that's a good rule of thumb for anything in listening to a song. If I know the performer knows the effect they're producing, whatever it is, then I can go with it. If I smell that they don't though, I don't like it.
I've been listening to a ton of the SF archive of late, and that's one thing that's become clear. If a song starts out sounding like shit for whatever reason, I wait until I've determined whether they sound like shit on purpose or just because they suck. As soon as I decide it's the latter, I skip. If it's the former, I'll keep listening. SFers like Sun Li or Jute Gyte are great examples. At first glance they seem to be crap, but you soon realize (with their good songs) that they're actually pretty talented.
I've never been able to reconcile vibrato with "right on pitch". I can take only a very tiny amount of it myself. For me, vocal style is the single biggest reason why I can't listen to opera, and vibrato is a big part of that. (I've often wondered if I could produce an opera recording by fixing it to suit my tastes.) However, I know that I've heard singing where the performer sounds a little off, then in the second half of a sustained note, they bring in a little vibrato and it suddenly sounds right to me. Weird. I think there are two effects of vibrato. There is some where it is layered on top artificially, and there are some voices where it sounds like the natural thing their voice does anyway. Frankie Big Face comes to mind. (Though technically his effect is often more a tremolo than vibrato.) His technique seems like it's just how his voice sounds. Sometimes it's really effective, other times it's too much for me and I lose the pitch.
I guess it's like anything, used in moderation it's effectiuve. Too much and it spoils the broth.
Jim, thanks a lot for taking a bunch of time to provide some honest feedback about BSS. I pretty much agree with all your points.
Here's a quick history of BSS. Years ago Ken separately enlisted me and Erin into his band to play gigs with him, then we started making songs for Song Fight! together. Glennny and Martin used to jam on Tuesday nights in Martin's basement and edit those jams down into Song Fight! entries. After playing some gigs all together, Ken and Glennny and Martin and I started renting a practice space together. That was the birth of BSS, a hybrid of "making songs for Song Fight!" and "Tuesday jam night".
There isn't really a goal other than to provide a musical outlet for those involved and to try to have it be inclusive and fun, I think. We're not necessarily trying to make the best music we can make, partly because we all have different styles and pretty different ideas of what our best music would be. There would be little overlap in all of our lists of favorite songs, for example. Also we have pretty wildly varying levels of availability, since this is just a hobby and we often have higher priorities.
Our song creation process usually starts with a Tuesday night jam, where we try to take whatever musical ideas anybody has and bolt them together into a song. Ken generally writes the bulk of the lyrics, I think, usually outside the recording sessions. Vocals generally wind up being done last and receive the least amount of time spent on them. Everything is done pretty fast though due to time constraints of Song Fight! and our lives.
As far as the vocals go, as glennny mentioned we'd love to have Erin sing every time but she's not available that often and she frankly doesn't love a lot of the music we generate at jam night. Martin is ordinarily our next in line, but ultimately, the vocals get done by whoever is willing and available.
The end result of all this, I think, is a lot of weird chimera songs, of varying levels of coherence. Sometimes I think we come up with some pretty good stuff, though, like "Boron Rod" and "Ring Them Bells", which are two of my favorites.
Anyway, thanks again for the feedback. I for one would like to try incorporating it into some entries to see what happens, time permitting.
Yeah, all the stuff you mention is a major hazard with writing these, or any Songfight reviews really. You just don't know what the subject of a review was going for. That's why I only ask for volunteers for this Orthogonal thing, and although I think I forgot to do so this time, I normally PM the victim and ask what specifically they are interested in and also get some of the back story you supplied here before I start firing missiles at the songs.
It's cool that you guys are keeping up with this. I get slightly jealous when I hear about the way these bands come together like that, but then I remember what a horrible collaborator I have historically been, and it's no wonder I've never been in a band.
And as I've mentioned before, I get way more benefit from these reviews than the people I'm reviewing do. It's as much a selfish learning experience as anything. Case in point: With the BSS reviews the wide-panning of the dueling lead guitars problem didn't dawn on me until very late in my listening, then all of a sudden it seemed really obvious and I had to go back and relisten to pieces of everything to see how widespread a problem it was, and then I had to go re-write the reviews to reflect that. But I wouldn't have noticed if I hadn't been listening to a lot of BSS all in big chunks. I now have taken away a clear example of the less is more philosophy in arrangement and my ears are that much better for it. This orthogonal process has been simply awesome for me.
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