My Eternal Mixing Problems

Reist · Post by **Reist** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:42 pm

So, I have been advised to work on my mixing (yet again), and I figure that if I make a very elaborate post, maybe you will feel better about giving advice. I have collected some of my previous information from another post, and I have it, along with pictures of my current setup. I hope you find it helpful, and if anyone wants to give me tips on how to make my mixes better, I will be grateful. The mix in question as of now is my 'Gray Rainbow' entry.

Guitar - Godin Detour
Amp - Traynor Guitar Mate 20

For Guitar - CAD ICM 417 Condensor pointing at an angle towards the amp and APEX 770 Unidirectional Dynamic Mic pointing straight toward the amp
For Drums -
Room Mics - 2 CAD ICM 417 Condensors hung above the set on two sides
Kick - CAD KBM 412 Kick Mic pointing straight at the kick
Snare - APEX 770 Unidirectional Dynamic Mic pointing at a fairly steep angle near the edge of the snare

Drum Kit - 5 piece Mapex M series with Remo heads
Cymbals -
Ride - Sabian B8 20"
Hi Hat - Sabian B8 14"
Crash - Paragon 16"
Stax - Portnoy Signature Max Stax large
Splash - Zildjian Avedis 10"

Don't have a bass. Right now I'm just pitch shifting an acoustic guitar setting.
I'm recording into a Yamaha AW1600 Professional Audio Workstation.

And now, the pictures!!!

overheads

hi tom

mid tom

low tom

snare

Apparently my kick sound is pretty bad, so here's a few angles of it.

This setup is not exact, but fairly close to my setup. The one on the stand is my condensor, and the one lower is the dynamic. Any comments on a different setup would be very cool.

So, I guess that's all I can do for now. Any comments on mixing and setup would be greatly appreciated.

Tonamel · Post by **Tonamel** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:25 pm

I'll admit to not being an expert at mic placement, but wouldn't close placements like that cause all kinds of proximity effect related problems?

blue · Post by **blue** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:42 pm

you have recording problems as much as mixing problems. you might have noticed everything in your songs is kinda faint sounding and lacking punch. that's because you're getting a very small amount of signal into the machine, and you probably don't have a lot of control over the wave once it's in.

i'm gonna assume you're using the pres on the Yamaha? if it has limiters on each channel, use them and crank the gain up. if not, you might want to think about getting some kind of small preamp so that you can get more gain on the snare and bass drum. if you're going to keep using that rig, you'll need to learn to play loud and steady.

we used one of those all-in-ones for the early sos stuff, but i had a couple of crappy pres and usually just ran it in the red.

to figure out where to put the mics, get a set of closed headphones and a helper. turn the headphones up as loud as you can stand (so you're hearing the phones and not the drummer) and have the helper hit each drum. move the mic until you're getting the best sound you can get.

i also prefer to mic my snare directly from the side, so i don't get so much of the snare head sound - more of a blend right off.

it looks like this
......____
=> |___|

if you want the guitars to sound sweet, find a sweet sound. record some guitar, listen back, then adjust the sound on the amp to what you want it to sound like recorded. don't worry about how it sounds right out of the amp, keep your ear on the end product.

really, there's not much glaringly off in your mix, you're just recording a bunch of crappy instruments with crappy mics into a crappy unit.

take a listen to your mix from across the room - it sounds like a mosquito factory having a wrestling match. same thing i keep telling billy - guitars are not the foundation of a mix. turn them the f down. drums and vox, unless you want to record a couple dozen guitar tracks or you are doug marsch.

ken · Post by **ken** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:22 pm

Yeah, your mic placement is a mess.

1. Use one mic when you record guitar amps. Use a dynamic. Point it straight at the cone of the speaker. Move it towards the outer edge and away from the amp and find where it sounds good. Most awesome rock guitar sounds are an sm57 jammed into the grill cloth on the center of the cone of the speaker.

2. Your drums are micd like a live sound engineer. This is recording. Back those mics off. Put the tom mics a few inches from the head pointed at the center of the drum, where you hit it. This is pretty much the general idea for all drums, including the kick. Get that kick mic on a stand. Point it where the beater hits head. The kick mic is best angled at that point.

So try thinking about all of your micing this way. Point it at the center of the instrument where the sound is made!

Hey, that's a start.

Ken

ken · Post by **ken** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:23 pm

Oh man, get that crap out of the kick drum. No wonder it sounds like that.

Ken

Billy's Little Trip · Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:29 pm

I really like how Lunkhead mixed your drums on his Pink Ribbon song. So your mixing is a big part of it because I'm sure you sent him your drum tracks the same as you normally do them, right?

I wish I could offer some advice, but mic'ing drums is my weak area. But it looks like you're getting pro advice above.

As far as mic'ing guitars, I use an sm57 right in the center of the speaker and almost touching the grate. I always record the rhythm guitar twice and pan each hard right and left. I always record the guitars with the FX exactly as I want them, but I do my reverb/delay on the mixing board. I almost never compress the guitars, but I do limit them. I do the lead the same way, but keep the lead tracks almost centered, just slightly off left and right.

The bass guitar I plug right into the board. Most are bothered by this practice, but I love it. After the bass track is recorded, I copy it twice so I have three bass tracks. I EQ one track for the low tones, one for mids and the other track for highs for some slap and string noise. I compress the bass track with the low tones and a little on the mid track. I like to just limit the bass track with the higher tones to work with the guitars and sound a little more free. It gives a lively bass sound, but keeps the lows in check. Mix to taste. Bass is centered.

Vocals are recorded with an SM58 for now, but a Rode studio mic is in my future. ALL vocal FX, reverb and delay happen on the mixing board. I have always plugged my vocal mic right into the board, but I just started (in the past two weeks) running my mic through my PODXT on a clean setting and recording the vox stereo, then recording a second identical track to fatten them up just like my guitars. I'm still getting used to that trick. I'm not sure if I like the double voice on the lead vox yet. I did it on my last to entries. Lead vox are centered.
Back up vox get panned left and right.

ken · Post by **ken** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:09 am

Can you flip your drums around when you record?

Can I see some picts of the whole room?

Ken

Paco Del Stinko · Post by **Paco Del Stinko** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:59 am

Ken - Don't you basically record the drums on 1 or 2 mics? Sounds great, whatever you're doing. And I'm certainly not implying anything about your close mic comments!

Blue - I would guess there is a sweet spot on the side of the drum also. I'll have to try that. (And get a real drummer here one day also)

JR - The dynamic mic on the amp is typically best, and some prefer it close and off center of the cone, and some angle the mic even with the paper. I typically prefer the less boomy off center approach, for what it's worth. Sounds dryer or tighter, to me. Also: I would be glad to put down a bass line for you anytime.

A long time ago I spoke with a guy who recorded the top back corner of amp cabs. I don't recall if he said what else he did this in conjunction with, but he swore by the full sound it produced. I tried it in the 4-track days on a little 10" crappo amp with who knows what for microphones, front and top back corner, and it was full sounding, if boxy. Weird how unlikely spots are occasionally good or better.

ken · Post by **ken** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:17 am

Paco Del Stinko wrote:Ken - Don't you basically record the drums on 1 or 2 mics? Sounds great, whatever you're doing.

Yes. I am lazy and it is easier to mix a few mics than a lot of them. Most of the Loyalty Day stuff was one large condeser on the drums. I'll use two mics, kick and overhead if I am in a hurry or don't have enough gear. I'll try to at least use three mics, kick-snare-overhead. These days, I typically use 4 or 5 mics if I have the time. Shure 91 in the kick, Shure Unidyne 3 on the snare, some kind of mono or stereo overheads, and a room mic. I've tried a bunch of different things, and it really depends on where I am recording (practice space, bedroom, elsewhere) and how much time I have to spend on it (after band practice at 11pm, late Sunday night, Saturday afternoon...). I think one of the best/easiest drum sounds I got was for the Steve Durand tracks I did. I used a couple of mics in an M/S pair and I think they sounded great. I added kick/snare/room to them.

Have you noticed how little I play the toms on my songs? Eliminates the need for tom mics!

I would also like to add that I have very nice recording gear. Pretty much everything I have is custom, modestly high end, or upgraded. I also have very nice instruments to record. I'm not trying to brag, just wanting to impress the importance of an old concept: garbage in, garbage out.

Funny, it is like my two main recording philosophies are:

1. KISS: keep it simple stupid
2. garbage in, garbage out

Also, nice tools are nice.

Ken

Billy's Little Trip · Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:54 pm

1. KISS: keep it simple stupid

I'm in the KISS army these days, lol. Drum machine, cabinet simulators and direct recording. I always have to laugh to myself while I'm recording thinking back to my old analog days. You give up a little here, but gain a little there. Technology is a comedian. But after a while it's like choken the chicken, because sooner or later you need the real thing.

ken · Post by **ken** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:03 pm

I also remind myself that it is only Songfight. You want to get your song idea across efficiently. It isn't a major label debut.

Ken

Billy's Little Trip · Post by **Billy's Little Trip** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:10 pm

I'll probably feel like that after I've been here for a year or two, also. Right now I'm having too much fun with my new studio toys and production knowledge you and everyone here have been teaching me.

blue · Post by **blue** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:35 pm

Ken,

everyone knows the Shure Unidyne 3 mic should be reserved sole-ly for cowbell duty. Please don't confuse the noobs by suggesting it be used on snare.

Philistine.

Billy's Little Trip · Post by **Billy's Little Trip** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:38 pm

blue wrote:Ken,

everyone knows the Shure Unidyne 3 mic should be reserved sole-ly for cowbell duty. Please don't confuse the noobs by suggesting it be used on snare.

Philistine.

Crap! Now I'm confused.

ken · Post by **ken** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:24 pm

I can't believe I give away my secrets so easily.

Ken

Paco Del Stinko · Post by **Paco Del Stinko** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:00 am

That's good philosophy, Ken. Related might be something like "make the best of what you've got".

thehipcola · Post by **thehipcola** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:50 am

Paco Del Stinko wrote:
A long time ago I spoke with a guy who recorded the top back corner of amp cabs. ...

I often use a dynamic slightly off axis from the cone, about 3 or 4 inches away from the amp, and slightly left or right to it...but I'll use a LD condensor aimed away from the amp to pick reflections from the super ugly, but nicely reflective basement panelling...blend the two signals for a stereo picture and I've been really impressed at how great it sounds. Different distances from the panelling greatly changes the character of the "room" spread, so I can often be found dragging either the mic or the amp around my basement looking for the sweet spot.

Paco Del Stinko · Post by **Paco Del Stinko** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:24 am

That's interesting, Hip, I like the image of someone grunting an amp all around the floor, mumbling and possibly cursing. I'm sure it can pay off, though, as ambiance can be wonderful if harnessed properly. I do enjoy room sound.

Lame war story #2: Back when I was younger and dumber, I took that same crappo amp I mentioned and faced it towards the glass door of a stereo cabinet. I then recorded the glass, producing a way too bright and, um, glassy sound. Interesting experiment, but pretty much awful sounding.

thehipcola · Post by **thehipcola** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:52 am

Paco Del Stinko wrote:...mumbling and possibly cursing.....

not much "possibly" about it....

Billy's Little Trip · Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:22 am

producing a way too bright and, um, glassy sound

HaHaHa!! Good times.
I used to mic my cab as I normally do, record my guitar part, then mic one or both of my studio monitor speakers, play back my recorded eq'd guitar part and record one or two more tracks. That was my answer to stereo. I had to get distance and levels just right to avoid feedback. It sounded very, um, monitory.

Reist · Post by **Reist** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:09 pm

So I listened to some suggestions, and utilized a bit of it in my most recent recording. Listen to Far and Beyond full not final at http://www.myspace.com/voxcaelorum and listen to the kick drum in the heavy part in the second half of the song. The mix of the song is a disaster, so you don't need to tell me that, but I think the kick sounds a lot better than before.

ps) that's my battle of the bands band.

EDIT: took out the comma. Thanks BLT.

Billy's Little Trip · Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:10 pm

jolly roger wrote:So I listened to some suggestions, and utilized a bit of it in my most recent recording. Listen to Far and Beyond full not final at http://www.myspace.com/voxcaelorum, and listen to the kick drum in the heavy part in the second half of the song. The mix of the song is a disaster, so you don't need to tell me that, but I think the kick sounds a lot better than before.

ps) that's my battle of the bands band.

You need to take the coma off the end of your link to make it clickable, Roger.
Cool song, sounds like that Norwegian metal I've been hearing of late.
But yeah, the kick sounded pretty good in the second half. Were you using a trigger in the beginning?
I've been adding a mild room reverb on my snare, hat, room and overhead mics and just a tiny bit on the kick and toms. Dry drums have no pizazz and too much makes them noisy and lose the snap I like.