Tuneflow

Future Boy · Post by **Future Boy** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:58 pm

I'm sure that many of you have received an e-mail from one Gery Carson about a new website called Tuneflow by now. I did some research today and I just want to say: DANGER DANGER!!

Gery Carson is the founder/owner/whatever of a Multilevel Marketing (MLM) company called Six Figure Income (SFI). This is basically a pyramid scheme company that has some products it sells. Like Amway, I guess. I urge you to read this announcement on the SFI forum where he announces the launch of Tuneflow and also it's current and future relationship to SFI.

If you read the FAQs at Tuneflow, you will notice that it is set up as a kind of MLM. You can sign up as an Artist and enter the monthly song competition, which is simply a copy of the SF model. If you win, you are awarded "cash and prizes". Artists can also sell their songs and schwag through the site and it claims, for the songs at least, that the Artist receives 60%-71% of all revenue (no mention of the take for physical product). Oh, and the "cash and prizes" is a pool of money that is a percentage of all sales for the month. So how much you can win depends entirely on how much the site sells in a given month. If the site does poorly, you might be rewarded 5 bucks for your trouble.

The second class of citizens at Tuneflow are the Members. The Members are the ones who review and rate songs, ultimately determining who wins the monthly contest. I strongly advise you to read the rating tunes FAQ to understand how that works. In particular, note that a Member is not allowed to choose exactly who they want to review:

Can I choose the songs or artists I want to review?
No, because it would allow biased voting to skew the results of the tournament. You will however get to review songs in your favorite music genres, and you will never review songs in your least favorite genres.

Emphasis mine. This means that one can expect fringe genres to never win the monthly contest simply because, in general, a large percentage of the membership will never be given a chance to rate or review that song. It also means that further down the line one can expect the genre classification system to be utterly useless because bands will know that to even have a fair shake at winning the contest, their song will have to be labeled Rock/Pop.

I also strongly urge you to read the member prize pool faq. Essentially, there is a monthly raffle for Members. Members acquire raffle tickets by referring people to the site (feeling like an affiliate pyramid scheme yet?), reviewing songs, and having their reviews marked with a "review feedback point" by the artists they review. There are extra points added if you are a Gold, Platinum, or Double Platinum member, though it doesn't explain how one attains those levels (I would guess by paying money).

The site claims to be all about the music and the artists, but it's treatment of Members seems to indicate otherwise. Imagine entering a song in the competition and having 30 members review it. Then imagine being pestered by those reviewers to give them their "review feedback point" because you foolishly included a contact e-mail on your artist page. Add to that the fact that the pool of money that is divided up each month in the raffles is built from a percentage of all sales for that month, and it really starts to feel like an MLM scheme where your music is the product being sold.

Now, it's not like they are not paying you for your music. But notice this, from the artist invite page:

artists are invited to upload and sell any original music they've recorded in the TuneFlow Music Store, all without any contracts or ongoing obligations.

If you don't sign a contract, they aren't obligated to actually pay you anything, now are they?

Dan-O from Five-O · Post by **Dan-O from Five-O** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:59 pm

I'm a capitalist, so I have no problem with making a buck or people making a buck. But I also have morals and values, so I do have issues with making a buck in a dishonest fashion. I can't say this is deliberately dishonest, and frankly degrees of dishonesty don't matter to me; dishonest is dishonest. I just don't like the format, which is too much like Songfight and seems like they're ripping off the idea. And I don't like the similarities to other pyramid schemes. Why the various levels of membership? And like Future Boy points out, why should I have to give out the RFP's when that could easily be automated? And who controls and verifies the raffle system is legit? It's not like that couldn't be fixed so that John Smith a.k.a. Gery Carson wins the raffle every time.

In the end the thing seems kind of shady to me. If someone can change my mind on this, great. I like the idea of an outlet for my music and again, being a capitalist, I have no problem with making a buck. I would just have a problem with someone claiming to be in support of the Indie Artist, and taking all the profits in the same the way the major label system works. Like FB said, no contract equals no legal rights.

roymond · Post by **roymond** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:37 pm

Song Fight is hardly an original idea. The fact that it's self-supported and run by a small group of folks that simply believe it should exist is unique. Actually not even that's so unique. But it is awesome.

That someone took this model and is making a commercial venture out of it, promising to even pay out a little bit each month...is that all that bad?

There are many details left out. Until you enter a tournament I wouldn't worry about any of this. The fact that there's no contract doesn't concern me as a competing artist. It would concern me as a selling artist, but there isn't much information about what music will be available for purchase and how that money is paid out. If I wanted to sell my music on it I'd want some idea of the arrangement. But like I said, there are many many details left out, and many typos left in, so it all looks pretty premature.

If someone wins a month's tournament but is never paid, I think the forum would light up like a christmas tree and the place would be sunk. Once artist discontent sets in they won't last. So that part of it doesn't really scare me. $5 is more than SF pays out

I just don't see what's in it for the members. At least for genres I may be involved in, most listeners aren't that involved. I can see teeny boppers and certain rabid fans of the current indie craze wanting to be part of a scene, but not art rock or weird shit I sometimes come up with. So then I'd be aiming to the likely audience to react positively, which sounds like commercial music marketing, and that's a great excercise for anyone contemplating an actual commercial music career. Or looking to hone writing skills in that way.

So I guess I don't see all the alarms going off as you do, FB. But I agree that personally it doesn't sound like somewhere I'd be successful or expect to find a warm fuzzy feeling like SF occassionally offers up.

fodroy · Post by **fodroy** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:41 pm

i actually received one of the invites via email. i don't know if they sent it to a bunch of songfighters or what, but it looked kind of lame to me (without seeing what it was really about). so i hit delete.

Dan-O from Five-O · Post by **Dan-O from Five-O** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:25 pm

fodroy wrote:i actually received one of the invites via email. i don't know if they sent it to a bunch of songfighters or what, but it looked kind of lame to me (without seeing what it was really about). so i hit delete.

They did send it to a bunch of Songfighters, those who have email addresses in their profiles. That's one of the big reasons I think they ripped off the Songfight model, whether anyone else thinks it's unique or not. (Sorry Botolph, no offense intended)

All I'm saying is why else would they have sent the bots in here to get e-mail addresses if they weren't trying to recruit people already familiar with this type of competition. And what better way to entice said community than to offer the prospect of being paid?

Again, I love the notion of making money, I always have. As artists without any backing, all of us should be happy at the thought of anyone here making money by writing music. But let's be realistic, most artists that garner any major label interest and make any real money aren't penning their own songs. I couldn't care less if someone else makes money off of a song I wrote, but I want my fair share of said profits. And until the details of the payout and ownership of said songs are provided, I'm going to remain skeptical.

I know there aren't any real promises about who could grab a song from here and turn it into whatever. But there is a pretty solid paper trail. I'm comfortable enough about that to send in songs and not worry about having them stolen from me. That doesn't mean you should skip the copywriting process, it just means I know Songfight has never claimed ownership of said material, while never claiming to protect it either. That's good enough for me.

These guys, well....let me put it this way. I feel like I could trust Spud and JB on a handshake contract even though we've never shook hands. If I ever met Gery Carson and shook his hand, I would probably reach to make sure my wallet was still there.

Eric Y. · Post by **Eric Y.** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 10:24 pm

wasn't gery carson (or "GC", much to the confusion of many) on the old messageboard? and also a songfight artist? why is "the smoking grapefruits" popping up in my head? does anybody remember this or am i making it up? or is this information actually on the website this thread is concerning (which i haven't bothered looking at) and i'm just rehashing information everyone else already knows?

fluffy · Post by **fluffy** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 10:28 pm

Out of curiosity, what Song Fight-like site may or may not have existed before Song Fight? Internet-based songwriting competitions are nothing new but was there anything prior with the post-a-title mechanic?

Not that it matters to TuneFlow or not. But this does most definitely seem like a huge scammy ripoff.

Also, while Song Fight has no monetary payoff, I'd say its other payoffs (experience writing and producing music, inspiration, sharing, mutual appreciation amongst musicians, and production tips and techniques, just to name a few) are invaluable. Monetizing it wouldn't add any value, and would instead probably detract - what's the incentive for people to help each other out if the person you help this week would be stealing your prize away next week?

fluffy · Post by **fluffy** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 10:29 pm

tviyh wrote:wasn't gery carson (or "GC", much to the confusion of many) on the old messageboard? and also a songfight artist? why is "the smoking grapefruits" popping up in my head? does anybody remember this or am i making it up? or is this information actually on the website this thread is concerning (which i haven't bothered looking at) and i'm just rehashing information everyone else already knows?

<a href="http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:A_J ... ri">Google agrees</a>

<a href="http://www.songfight.org/artistpage.php ... date">this guy</a>

Leaf · Post by **Leaf** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 11:03 pm

I'm pretty sure he openly talked about this concept on the boards, people chased him off, and he said "you haven't heard the last of me songfight!!! hahahahahh!!!"

ok, the last bit I dont' think happened, but it should have. I do remember him posting about doing some kind of sharing commercial venture though, but I don't care enough to go find where.

deshead · Post by **deshead** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:28 am

Tuneflow is as much like Garageband. In fact, depending on how Tuneflow operates their review process, they could run afoul of the patent Garageband's waiting on.

fluffy wrote:Monetizing it wouldn't add any value

Though if Tuneflow succeeds, it's a safe bet there'll be many more Songfight clones in the future. Or, rather, Tuneflow clones.

fluffy · Post by **fluffy** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:42 am

I'm actually surprised GarageBand is even still around. They make it so difficult to post songs, get reviews, or get anything out of it. How many bands on GarageBand just have their single song sitting off in la-la land?

Future Boy · Post by **Future Boy** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:22 am

I am amazed at memory of obscure happenings in SF message board history that some of you have. No one can accuse him of not following through, at least.

HeuristicsInc · Post by **HeuristicsInc** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:42 am

tviyh wrote:wasn't gery carson (or "GC", much to the confusion of many) on the old messageboard? and also a songfight artist? why is "the smoking grapefruits" popping up in my head?

yeah, this amazed me too. voice, you've got a good memory.
-bill

roymond · Post by **roymond** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:43 am

Yeah, sort of scary, actually, the persistance of SF memory.

At least with Garageband, you had Harrison there to give it creed. It is a pain and like TuneFlow, the "member" participation is what drives the model. Nobody listening/reviewing and nothing will ever happen. Even with interactive audience voting on American Idol, it's only one night a week, 4 songs, and pressing a button. Paula takes care of the rest. And advertisers.

I signed up to see what else you learn in the process (and secretly to mount a winning assault on the global music stage). For a model that talks about "global" play and exposure, they really need to reconsider the genre "world music". What exactly does this mean to an African drummer, an Indonesian flute player, a Persian Oud soloist, an Hungarian singer? Come on...basic cultural perspective 101. Am I along on this?

Bjam · Post by **Bjam** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:18 pm

Garageband has damn good reviews.

fluffy · Post by **fluffy** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:34 pm

I wouldn't know. Getting them to begin with is difficult. Or at least it was back when I tried putting my stuff on GB. Of course back then I was still just doing my niche minimal-electronic stuff and so most of the reviews I received were things like, 'what's this Gameboy-sounding shit?'

mkilly · Post by **mkilly** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 6:31 pm

roymond wrote:Yeah, sort of scary, actually, the persistance of SF memory.

No fooling. I'm a Poli Sci major, I hope none of y'all bring up skeletons of my SongFight closet when I'm running for President. (Song Fight Veterans for Truth?)

blue · Post by **blue** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:17 am

3XP4ND0R must ride again.

fluffy · Post by **fluffy** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:26 am

MARC KELLIS says he is an accomplished musician.

FACT: As of 2006 he had never won a Songfight. [fine print: Aside from Prayer for Pancakes, which DOES NOT COUNT.]

MARC KELLIS says he cares about the Songfight community.

FACT: So why does he continue to submit songs like this? [cue clip of Birthdays and Breakups]

MARC KELLIS claims is a devoted political scientist.

FACT: So why did he use to claim to be an electrical engineer, <em>superior to</em> his "dirty capitalist pig-dog" business roommate in Why Are You Making Me Kick You Out?

[this message paid for by the National Society for the Advancement of Capitalist Pig-Dog Republicans]

blue · Post by **blue** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:35 am

this dude has obviously put a great deal of thought and effort into this site, but it's going to be a debacle, or at least a joke, for two reasons:

1) the "prizes" come from sale of the songs.. but uh.. good luck with that.
2) artists approve reviews. reviews that an artist doesn't like don't count.

the site is going to get gamed, hard.

artistic integrity makes songfight work, and lack of it makes every other site suck butt.

deshead · Post by **deshead** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:14 am

Blue is totally right. The first month's contest is going to be a clusterfuck.

Garageband works because artists don't get reviews of their own songs until they've done reviews of others. But I'm pretty sure the only people listening to music on GB are other musicians. I'd wager the same is true on Songfight. Witness the weekly parity between number of entries and number of votes.

Tuneflow doesn't even have that incentive.

Isn't it a truism that people won't pay for independent music on the Internet? The whole cow-milk-free thing. Unless, as Future Boy implied above, Gery has some other trick up his sleeve, the Tuneflow business model is fundamentally flawed.

Post by **Spud** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:14 am

Not sure he has put as much thought into it as he has put typing into it:

"At the end of the month, the songs with the highest average ratings win cash, prizes, and recognition."

"How are the winners selected?
Luck of the draw! That is, we draw the winners at random."

Clearly though, here is an area Gery is thinking about:

"As content grows, however, opportunites for tie-ins with SFI are expected. Music is a vast, multi-billiion dollar international industry. TuneFlow is also fully digital, which means that it can be marketed everywhere with no shipping costs or other delivery issues. Perfect for SFI's vast, global marketing network."