wiki plz
- Manhattan Glutton
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wiki plz
In the IRC we all decided we want an open wiki full of artists and songs and stuff. Open as in, anyone can make an account and edit, until they become jerks.
There seems to be an abandoned one online, and then something hiding at songfight.net/wiki. The nur ein one seems unsuitable.
Looking for input with how to proceed.
Sincerely,
the irc
There seems to be an abandoned one online, and then something hiding at songfight.net/wiki. The nur ein one seems unsuitable.
Looking for input with how to proceed.
Sincerely,
the irc
If I had a dollar for every one of my songs j$ has called a 90s pastiche, I'd have $1 for every song I've written.
Nur Ein Archives | The New Ugly Podcast
Nur Ein Archives | The New Ugly Podcast
- JonPorobil
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Re: wiki plz
Who's "we all"? I don't remember the last time I saw more than three active participants in the chat room at any given time.
Anyway, yeah, that wiki exists. The problem with it was that information on Songfight becomes obselete very quickly. Many of the people who were active or important in the community are obscure now, and many of the people who are active and important now hadn't yet joined the community when this wiki was edited.
I'm also not convinced that a wiki would add value equal or greater to the effort needed to set it up and maintain it. Lunkhead's Java-based Songfight Archive tool is great for pulling up statistical factoids and filters on the archive, and the the official music archive has bios and pictures of every Songfighter who wanted to self-report.
[EDIT: Of course, anyone who wants can set up and maintain a Songfight wiki themselves... It's not like anyone's going to stop you. I just doubt the usefulness of asking that songfighters put their valuable time and effort towards maintaining a tool that we've already gotten bored with and abandoned at one point in the past.]
Anyway, yeah, that wiki exists. The problem with it was that information on Songfight becomes obselete very quickly. Many of the people who were active or important in the community are obscure now, and many of the people who are active and important now hadn't yet joined the community when this wiki was edited.
I'm also not convinced that a wiki would add value equal or greater to the effort needed to set it up and maintain it. Lunkhead's Java-based Songfight Archive tool is great for pulling up statistical factoids and filters on the archive, and the the official music archive has bios and pictures of every Songfighter who wanted to self-report.
[EDIT: Of course, anyone who wants can set up and maintain a Songfight wiki themselves... It's not like anyone's going to stop you. I just doubt the usefulness of asking that songfighters put their valuable time and effort towards maintaining a tool that we've already gotten bored with and abandoned at one point in the past.]
Last edited by JonPorobil on Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Warren Zevon would be proud." -Reve Mosquito
Stages, an album of about dealing with loss, anxiety, and grieving a difficult year, now available on Bandcamp and all streaming platforms! https://jonporobil.bandcamp.com/album/stages
Stages, an album of about dealing with loss, anxiety, and grieving a difficult year, now available on Bandcamp and all streaming platforms! https://jonporobil.bandcamp.com/album/stages
- Manhattan Glutton
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Re: wiki plz
That's the first time I ever heard of any sort of wiki. I think the problem is nobody knows about the Wiki to care about it. So, if this simple problem were resolved, we might have better luck.
Rather than email the webmaster and pray that my archive page gets updated, I'd rather just edit the wiki article myself.
Rather than email the webmaster and pray that my archive page gets updated, I'd rather just edit the wiki article myself.
If I had a dollar for every one of my songs j$ has called a 90s pastiche, I'd have $1 for every song I've written.
Nur Ein Archives | The New Ugly Podcast
Nur Ein Archives | The New Ugly Podcast
- JonPorobil
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Re: wiki plz
There was a time when everyone on the board knew about the wiki. JB, Spud, fluffy, Niveous, Sven, and I - to name a few - all contributed pages. Then we got bored with it and moved on to other things. We didn't make an intentional effort to abandon it, but eventually we moved on, and the reason that happened was because, at the end of the day, the wiki wasn't actually that useful.Manhattan Glutton wrote:That's the first time I ever heard of any sort of wiki. I think the problem is nobody knows about the Wiki to care about it. So, if this simple problem were resolved, we might have better luck.
I'll rephrase the problem. What use do you think you would get out of a Songfight wiki, assuming you could get the whole community to contribute to its population?
"Warren Zevon would be proud." -Reve Mosquito
Stages, an album of about dealing with loss, anxiety, and grieving a difficult year, now available on Bandcamp and all streaming platforms! https://jonporobil.bandcamp.com/album/stages
Stages, an album of about dealing with loss, anxiety, and grieving a difficult year, now available on Bandcamp and all streaming platforms! https://jonporobil.bandcamp.com/album/stages
- Manhattan Glutton
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Re: wiki plz
The whole point of an official open wiki is so that people who are motivated can add to it. Throwing it away because you guys got bored is not the correct approach. If stuff gets out of date, there should be guidelines as to what information is relevant for articles.
What I'd like to see is it take some of the burden off the webmaster for maintenacey things (artist bios, for one), take some of the burden off of new people to find their footing, and create a more transparent, integrated community.
Yeah, I could go off and make a wiki. It seems like people have. But what we need is an OFFICIAL wiki.
What I'd like to see is it take some of the burden off the webmaster for maintenacey things (artist bios, for one), take some of the burden off of new people to find their footing, and create a more transparent, integrated community.
Yeah, I could go off and make a wiki. It seems like people have. But what we need is an OFFICIAL wiki.
If I had a dollar for every one of my songs j$ has called a 90s pastiche, I'd have $1 for every song I've written.
Nur Ein Archives | The New Ugly Podcast
Nur Ein Archives | The New Ugly Podcast
- fluffy
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Re: wiki plz
It wasn't thrown away, it was just no longer updated. If you want to start updating it, knock yourself out. It is, after all, a wiki.
- Manhattan Glutton
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Re: wiki plz
I'm not going to update something that isn't advertised and nobody knows about.
Just because you guys don't feel it's useful, does not mean that it's not going to be useful.
Just because you guys don't feel it's useful, does not mean that it's not going to be useful.
If I had a dollar for every one of my songs j$ has called a 90s pastiche, I'd have $1 for every song I've written.
Nur Ein Archives | The New Ugly Podcast
Nur Ein Archives | The New Ugly Podcast
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Re: wiki plz
Well the lack of advertising bit is easy to fix at least.
The maintaining community interest bit, however, not so much.
The maintaining community interest bit, however, not so much.
- Manhattan Glutton
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Re: wiki plz
Wiki activity and prominence begets wiki activity and prominence. It's not that wild of a concept.
If I had a dollar for every one of my songs j$ has called a 90s pastiche, I'd have $1 for every song I've written.
Nur Ein Archives | The New Ugly Podcast
Nur Ein Archives | The New Ugly Podcast
- RangerDenni
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Re: wiki plz
I like the idea. I dont know how useful I could be though, except to bring some traffic to an existing place. I don't discuss songfight as much as I could but I would like to a little bit more, and not just about myself. I have a good group of followers that I've kept smallish and full of quality through selective promotion. It's nice to have worthwhile things to point to. I talked about Live in NYC quite a bit
"Really interesting how the point you’re making slowly emerges like Martin Sheen from the mud in Apocalypse Now..." ~j$
- Manhattan Glutton
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Re: wiki plz
Whoever's in charge of the admininstration, please open LocalSettings.php and add this:
So that we can get subpages. Thank you.
Code: Select all
$wgNamespacesWithSubpages = array_fill(0, 200, true);
If I had a dollar for every one of my songs j$ has called a 90s pastiche, I'd have $1 for every song I've written.
Nur Ein Archives | The New Ugly Podcast
Nur Ein Archives | The New Ugly Podcast
- Billy's Little Trip
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Re: wiki plz
I am in charge. I'll get right on it. $wgNamespacesWithSubpages = array_fill(0, 200, true);....annnnnnd, clickManhattan Glutton wrote:Whoever's in charge of the admininstration, please open LocalSettings.php and add this:Code: Select all
$wgNamespacesWithSubpages = array_fill(0, 200, true);
Ok, you're all set.
- JonPorobil
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Re: wiki plz
Generic wrote:We didn't make an intentional effort to abandon it, but eventually we moved on, and the reason that happened was because, at the end of the day, the wiki wasn't actually that useful.
If the juxtaposition doesn't speak for itself, then I have this to ask: who decides what the correct approach is? Correct for whom? For what result? In other words, what purpose do you think this wiki will serve that isn't being served elsewhere on Songfight?Manhattan Glutton wrote:Throwing it away because you guys got bored is not the correct approach.
"Warren Zevon would be proud." -Reve Mosquito
Stages, an album of about dealing with loss, anxiety, and grieving a difficult year, now available on Bandcamp and all streaming platforms! https://jonporobil.bandcamp.com/album/stages
Stages, an album of about dealing with loss, anxiety, and grieving a difficult year, now available on Bandcamp and all streaming platforms! https://jonporobil.bandcamp.com/album/stages
- Manhattan Glutton
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Re: wiki plz
Like I outlined above, the more the community can run itself, the better it will be for everyone. Considering no one I talked to was aware of any wiki, I don't believe that you guys actually tried.
If I had a dollar for every one of my songs j$ has called a 90s pastiche, I'd have $1 for every song I've written.
Nur Ein Archives | The New Ugly Podcast
Nur Ein Archives | The New Ugly Podcast
- JonPorobil
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Re: wiki plz
You don't think we actually tried.... to do what, exactly? You keep saying in vague terms:
"...the better it will be for everyone." Better how?
"Wiki activity and prominence begets wiki activity and prominence." Yes, but to what end?
"Just because you guys don't feel it's useful, does not mean that it's not going to be useful." Useful to whom and in what way?
This site has been running a wiki for at least seven years. Four about one year of that it was quite active. The reason it's not active now is because the people who were using the wiki eventually realized that there wasn't much benefit to it.
That said, feel free to make that same discovery yourself. For me at least, you haven't yet demonstrated an actual need for a wiki so much as you've demonstrated your own interest in a wiki.
Furthermore, you write: Considering no one I talked to was aware of any wiki, I don't believe that you guys actually tried.
Who did you talk to? Scratch that last part, I don't actually care. The fact that no one you spoke to knew there was a wiki is only indicative of what has already been demonstrated - that it fell out of use. Those of us who do remember the wiki don't have any doubts about why it fell out of use, and those of us who weren't around during that time period would have no reason to know about it.
"...the better it will be for everyone." Better how?
"Wiki activity and prominence begets wiki activity and prominence." Yes, but to what end?
"Just because you guys don't feel it's useful, does not mean that it's not going to be useful." Useful to whom and in what way?
This site has been running a wiki for at least seven years. Four about one year of that it was quite active. The reason it's not active now is because the people who were using the wiki eventually realized that there wasn't much benefit to it.
That said, feel free to make that same discovery yourself. For me at least, you haven't yet demonstrated an actual need for a wiki so much as you've demonstrated your own interest in a wiki.
Who did you talk to?
"Warren Zevon would be proud." -Reve Mosquito
Stages, an album of about dealing with loss, anxiety, and grieving a difficult year, now available on Bandcamp and all streaming platforms! https://jonporobil.bandcamp.com/album/stages
Stages, an album of about dealing with loss, anxiety, and grieving a difficult year, now available on Bandcamp and all streaming platforms! https://jonporobil.bandcamp.com/album/stages
- Manhattan Glutton
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Re: wiki plz
My pals in the IRC. You know them.
Can you point to a single link to the wiki anywhere on either songfight.org/.net, besides this forum?
Don't tell me gardening doesn't work just because your plant died in the closet. Of course plants die in the closet.
Can you point to a single link to the wiki anywhere on either songfight.org/.net, besides this forum?
Don't tell me gardening doesn't work just because your plant died in the closet. Of course plants die in the closet.
If I had a dollar for every one of my songs j$ has called a 90s pastiche, I'd have $1 for every song I've written.
Nur Ein Archives | The New Ugly Podcast
Nur Ein Archives | The New Ugly Podcast
- fluffy
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Re: wiki plz
The link used to be on songfight.net's front page, but was removed because the wiki was, get this, not being used.
The plants were moved into the closet only after they had died, decayed, and fossilized, and they were making the yard look ugly and the roots were invaded by parasites that kept getting into the drinking water.
The plants were moved into the closet only after they had died, decayed, and fossilized, and they were making the yard look ugly and the roots were invaded by parasites that kept getting into the drinking water.
- Manhattan Glutton
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Re: wiki plz
Well, good, maybe we can try harder this time. Perhaps even put the link on songfight.org which gets more traffic!
Oh wait. We don't try and give up when things get hard. Good point, guys.
Oh wait. We don't try and give up when things get hard. Good point, guys.
If I had a dollar for every one of my songs j$ has called a 90s pastiche, I'd have $1 for every song I've written.
Nur Ein Archives | The New Ugly Podcast
Nur Ein Archives | The New Ugly Podcast
- fluffy
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Re: wiki plz
Yes that's totally exactly what happens. That's why this site shut down in 2002 when the original guy who ran it disappeared without saying anything. And why there isn't a forum now ever since Dumbrella changed theirs around a bit. And why we never run annual local shows, because one went bad and it's HARD.
You still haven't answered the basic question of what the wiki would be FOR and why it would be worth it to the community to maintain one.
You still haven't answered the basic question of what the wiki would be FOR and why it would be worth it to the community to maintain one.
- Manhattan Glutton
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Re: wiki plz
This morning, I was looking for information on a particular song fighter that I remembered from some website. I looked in the archive. I looked at the nur ein wiki. I looked at some random wiki that was started 5 years ago that google brought up. Ultimately, I think the only information about him is on one of Niveous's 900 random wikis.
The point is, even if I had found out-of-date information, I would have been satisfied. If we had a central place for this type of information, instead of information spread across random websites run by random owners, things could be a little different.
I still don't have the information I was curious about. Not that it's that important. But it's like, where is our history?
Because we certainly have a distinct culture and a community. For godsake it took me 6 years and I still don't quite 'get' it. How are new people supposed to? They don't. And that's why there aren't more new regulars: because the websites look like ass, there's no central repository for information, and everyone involved is a defeatist when it comes to improvement - even though I'd gladly take on some of those tasks, I'm not going to do it with everyone giving me 1000-word contrarian essays whenever I bring something up.
The nice thing about a wiki is it doesn't matter if it's out of date. Anyone who cares will update it. Eventually it becomes a life of its own. It's not supposed to be maintained in the traditional, laborous sense. Some expired information is better than no information. Useless information to you is not useless to someone else. Etc.
The point is, even if I had found out-of-date information, I would have been satisfied. If we had a central place for this type of information, instead of information spread across random websites run by random owners, things could be a little different.
I still don't have the information I was curious about. Not that it's that important. But it's like, where is our history?
Because we certainly have a distinct culture and a community. For godsake it took me 6 years and I still don't quite 'get' it. How are new people supposed to? They don't. And that's why there aren't more new regulars: because the websites look like ass, there's no central repository for information, and everyone involved is a defeatist when it comes to improvement - even though I'd gladly take on some of those tasks, I'm not going to do it with everyone giving me 1000-word contrarian essays whenever I bring something up.
The nice thing about a wiki is it doesn't matter if it's out of date. Anyone who cares will update it. Eventually it becomes a life of its own. It's not supposed to be maintained in the traditional, laborous sense. Some expired information is better than no information. Useless information to you is not useless to someone else. Etc.
Last edited by Manhattan Glutton on Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If I had a dollar for every one of my songs j$ has called a 90s pastiche, I'd have $1 for every song I've written.
Nur Ein Archives | The New Ugly Podcast
Nur Ein Archives | The New Ugly Podcast
- JonPorobil
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Re: wiki plz
In your metaphor, gardening represents wikis. I'm obviously not going to tell you that wikis don't work because ours didn't work. I use Wikipedia all the time, and sometimes I even consult Wikia pages when trying to discuss pop culture franchises with detailed universes.Manhattan Glutton wrote:My pals in the IRC. You know them.
Can you point to a single link to the wiki anywhere on either songfight.org/.net, besides this forum?
Don't tell me gardening doesn't work just because your plant died in the closet. Of course plants die in the closet.
But Songfight didn't need one. If Songfight had needed one, then the one we tried to maintain would have had more users, it would have had more editors, it wouldn't have fallen out of use, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Wikis can be useful. Songfight doesn't need one. You seem to disagree on this second point, but you haven't bothered to express your point, preferring instead to assume that we must all see the obvious value in having a wiki.
So I'll rephrase my arguments one last time:
If we maintain a wiki, what kind of information would you want to be on it? Who would you expect to edit it, and who would you expect to read it?
There's already a full archive of music and art, as well as an FAQ, linked from the front page. What info would you expect the wiki to have that isn't available using these resources?
Look, MG, I know you. I like you. In this case, I think you're wrong. If you can't engage these arguments on their own terms, then I clearly have no chance of convincing you otherwise, but Songfight doesn't need a wiki.
"Warren Zevon would be proud." -Reve Mosquito
Stages, an album of about dealing with loss, anxiety, and grieving a difficult year, now available on Bandcamp and all streaming platforms! https://jonporobil.bandcamp.com/album/stages
Stages, an album of about dealing with loss, anxiety, and grieving a difficult year, now available on Bandcamp and all streaming platforms! https://jonporobil.bandcamp.com/album/stages