Modern democracy (was: COVID-19 freakout thread)

Go ahead, get it off your chest.
User avatar
sleepysilverdoor
Ice Cream Man
Posts: 1087
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:02 pm
Instruments: Drums, Guitars, Keys
Recording Method: Focusrite + FL Studio
Submitting as: Phl*b*
Pronouns: bruh
Location: Not super far from Atlanta but definitely not Atlanta
Contact:

Re: Modern democracy (was: COVID-19 freakout thread)

Post by sleepysilverdoor »

Where in the fuck is Prince on your list?
"There's a lot to be said about a full-on frontal assault on the ear drums" - Pigfarmer Jr.
User avatar
Caravan Ray
bono
bono
Posts: 8647
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:51 pm
Instruments: Penis
Recording Method: Garageband
Submitting as: Caravan Ray,G.O.R.T.E.C,Lyricburglar,The Thugs from the Scallop Industry
Location: Toowoomba, Queensland
Contact:

Re: Modern democracy (was: COVID-19 freakout thread)

Post by Caravan Ray »

sleepysilverdoor wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:04 pm
Where in the fuck is Prince on your list?
Charles or Phillip? Sure, they’re both great and all that - but they are no Cliff Richard.
User avatar
Pigfarmer Jr
Jump
Posts: 2293
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:13 am
Instruments: Guitar
Recording Method: Br-900CD and Reaper to mix
Submitting as: Pigfarmer Jr, Evil Grin, Pork Producer, Gilmore Lynette Tootle, T.C. Elliott
Pronouns: he/him
Location: Columbia, Missouri
Contact:

Re: Modern democracy (was: COVID-19 freakout thread)

Post by Pigfarmer Jr »

Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers
The Jimi Hendrix Experience

personal bias implemented at MAX level
Evil Grin bandcamp - Evil Grin spotify
T.C. Elliott bandcamp - T.C. Elliott spotify

"PigFramer: Guy and guitar OF MY NIGHTMARES." - Blue Lang
User avatar
Caravan Ray
bono
bono
Posts: 8647
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:51 pm
Instruments: Penis
Recording Method: Garageband
Submitting as: Caravan Ray,G.O.R.T.E.C,Lyricburglar,The Thugs from the Scallop Industry
Location: Toowoomba, Queensland
Contact:

Re: Modern democracy (was: COVID-19 freakout thread)

Post by Caravan Ray »

Pigfarmer Jr wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:35 pm
Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers
The Jimi Hendrix Experience

personal bias implemented at MAX level
are you reinforcing my “quarterback” theory? Otherwise you would have written The Heartbreakers and The Experience?

(Oh and you did ask a good question to me about trump and presidential power earlier I will get back to when I get a chance)
User avatar
Pigfarmer Jr
Jump
Posts: 2293
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:13 am
Instruments: Guitar
Recording Method: Br-900CD and Reaper to mix
Submitting as: Pigfarmer Jr, Evil Grin, Pork Producer, Gilmore Lynette Tootle, T.C. Elliott
Pronouns: he/him
Location: Columbia, Missouri
Contact:

Re: Modern democracy (was: COVID-19 freakout thread)

Post by Pigfarmer Jr »

Caravan Ray wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:06 am
Pigfarmer Jr wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:35 pm
Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers
The Jimi Hendrix Experience

personal bias implemented at MAX level
are you reinforcing my “quarterback” theory? Otherwise you would have written The Heartbreakers and The Experience?

I just like those two bands enough to try to sidetrack an otherwise great metaphor. But they are both interesting in that I think that the stars were what carried the band (obviously) but without the other components these bands couldn't have been what they were. (The exception being Band of Gypsies was an even "better" band but so different it's hard to compare and they wouldn't have been possible without the Experience.) Even with a great quarterback it often takes a damn good team to reach true success. Another case where we give credit/blame to the quarterback. Which makes sense because the quarterbacks did most of the songwriting but doesn't make sense because without Mike or Mitch the bands aren't the same. Or maybe that makes your metaphor stronger? At any rate, I just think those two bands don't get mentioned enough in greatest of all time (bands) lists.
Caravan Ray wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:06 am
(Oh and you did ask a good question to me about trump and presidential power earlier I will get back to when I get a chance)
Don't feel obligated. I'm only here as a visitor. After ten years of avoiding this forum like the plague, I'm beginning to realize why it was a good idea. Even though y'all are being entirely more cordial than I'd have thought. That being said, I am interested in the answer.
Evil Grin bandcamp - Evil Grin spotify
T.C. Elliott bandcamp - T.C. Elliott spotify

"PigFramer: Guy and guitar OF MY NIGHTMARES." - Blue Lang
User avatar
crumpart
Ice Cream Man
Posts: 1123
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:04 am
Instruments: Fuzz
Submitting as: Hot Pink Halo
Pronouns: She/her
Location: Laois, Ireland
Contact:

Re: Modern democracy (was: COVID-19 freakout thread)

Post by crumpart »

An interesting read on constitutional law and Australian Indigenous rights.

Australia’s Constitutional Answer To Structural Racism

The researcher who wrote this, Dr Shireen Morris, is an amazing woman who ran for Labor in my seat at the last election. Unfortunately she was defeated by this shitcunt, the king of sports rorts.
Devil’s got me Lindt! Devil’s got me Lindt!
User avatar
Caravan Ray
bono
bono
Posts: 8647
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:51 pm
Instruments: Penis
Recording Method: Garageband
Submitting as: Caravan Ray,G.O.R.T.E.C,Lyricburglar,The Thugs from the Scallop Industry
Location: Toowoomba, Queensland
Contact:

Re: Modern democracy (was: COVID-19 freakout thread)

Post by Caravan Ray »

crumpart wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:18 am
An interesting read on constitutional law and Australian Indigenous rights.

Australia’s Constitutional Answer To Structural Racism

The researcher who wrote this, Dr Shireen Morris, is an amazing woman who ran for Labor in my seat at the last election. Unfortunately she was defeated by this shitcunt, the king of sports rorts.
Yes. Not a bad article.

No actual answers - just a lot of pointy-headed layers espousing what should happen but without offering any suggestions of a way forward. A bit like Caravan Ray really.

And like Caravan Ray - she is pointing to constitutional faults. As I suggested many pages ago - the Uluru Statement from the Heart is entirely reasonable. That it is not adopted into our Constitution is an example of systemic racism.

Likewise - the US Constitution and Declaration of Independence was written by slave owners. It is a nation built on systemic racism. A nation that cannot acknowledge that is a failed state. You have to change your Constitution and form a modern state that is based on non-racist philosophy.

Otherwise Mr Trump will be you last President. And First Emperor.
User avatar
Caravan Ray
bono
bono
Posts: 8647
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:51 pm
Instruments: Penis
Recording Method: Garageband
Submitting as: Caravan Ray,G.O.R.T.E.C,Lyricburglar,The Thugs from the Scallop Industry
Location: Toowoomba, Queensland
Contact:

Re: Modern democracy (was: COVID-19 freakout thread)

Post by Caravan Ray »

Pigfarmer Jr wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:00 am
I think you make a very valid point that the office of the president has too much power. And whether our constitution permits it or not does not change the fact that it has not restrained it. But I am curious. Do you have a list of things this president has accomplished (and not just said) that you feel indicates the office has too much power? Do you have specifics? And did you hold this same belief with the last president?
Ok. This is a good question.

Answer. No - I don't have a list of things this president has accomplished that you feel indicates the office has too much power.

Mainly - because I really don't follow USA very closely and I generally don't know what a USA President does. Generally...

I knew when US forces illegally invaded Iraq. Because Australian forces were part of that illegal invasion. And GWB and John Howard will burn in hell for the million Iraqi civilians that died as a result of that illegal action.

I knew when GWB refused to ratify the Kyoto Protocol because John Howard supported him and we simply cannot count the untold misery that those two cunts have subjected future generations to with their mindfucking ignorance.

In those cases - I assumed that GWB was not making decisions. He had a cabal of minions from hell who were all on his wavelength. It was not one person with GWB. The entire USA government was pure evil.

Now.....we miss the days of the cabal of pure evil. You can trust a cabal of pure evil.

Now...It seriously seems like you are letting one fuckwit make actual decisions!!!

Why was the border closing for Covid 19 so fucked? Did that guy actually have a say?!?!? Why?!?!
Has can this guy just say the USA will not fund WHO?!!? Can he do that??!?
Can this guy actually sent National Guard into states? Why would one person be able to do that?!?

The most comforting thing I have sen about Mr Trump is the stuff about Russians paying for Iranian hits on US forces. It appears that your own intelligence people are smart enough to hide stuff from him. Which reinforces my question:

WHY THE FUCK DO YOU GIVE POWER TO ONE PERSON!!!!!
It is 18th century nonsense. Your country has to grow up.

Isn't that what you whole revolution (tax-avoidance scheme) was all about?
User avatar
Lunkhead
You're No Good
Posts: 8107
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:14 pm
Instruments: many
Recording Method: cubase/mac/tascam4x4
Submitting as: Berkeley Social Scene, Merisan, Tiny Robots
Pronouns: he/him
Location: Berkeley, CA
Contact:

Re: Modern democracy (was: COVID-19 freakout thread)

Post by Lunkhead »

The usual "handlers" and "supporting cast" apparently are only as relevant to the decision making process as the president allows them to be, is what people all up and down seem to be learning, to their horror:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/29/politics ... index.html

Except, they're not horrified enough to actually do anything about it. I think the Republican party just wants power at all costs and they're not going to get in the way of their "populist" figurehead guy no matter what kind of insanity he perpetrates. At least not until his poll numbers are down low enough. Maybe not even then though. We'll see.
User avatar
gizo
Push Comes to Shove
Posts: 498
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:42 pm
Instruments: i am mostly playing stringed ones, but I'll have a tilt at most
Recording Method: my method is to throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks. My wall is made of Logic on an old iMac
Submitting as: gizo : rackwagon (with Toshiro) : Late Heavy Bombardment : Stacking Theory
Pronouns: he/him
Location: I wish I was at an ocean beach

Re: Modern democracy (was: COVID-19 freakout thread)

Post by gizo »

On COVID freakout news - we're back into another 6 weeks of lockdown, which is going to totally screw with my dinner plans.
.sig
User avatar
Caravan Ray
bono
bono
Posts: 8647
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:51 pm
Instruments: Penis
Recording Method: Garageband
Submitting as: Caravan Ray,G.O.R.T.E.C,Lyricburglar,The Thugs from the Scallop Industry
Location: Toowoomba, Queensland
Contact:

Re: Modern democracy (was: COVID-19 freakout thread)

Post by Caravan Ray »

Lunkhead wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:55 am
Except, they're not horrified enough to actually do anything about it. I think the Republican party just wants power at all costs and they're not going to get in the way of their "populist" figurehead guy no matter what kind of insanity he perpetrates. At least not until his poll numbers are down low enough. Maybe not even then though. We'll see.
This is the bit I genuinely don't get.

There is a whole big Republican Party I assume - All those Republican politicians - aren't they watching their jobs?

I really don't know how your thing works. Here - as soon as low level politicians think they might lose their seat in Parliament - they gang up against the leader.

This separation of your President from your Congress is really weird. If there was a Republican congressperson who could take the top job if Trump was dumped - he'd would have been gone ages ago.

It is weird.
User avatar
ujnhunter
Ice Cream Man
Posts: 1804
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:09 pm
Instruments: Bass, Keyboards, Crummy Guitar & Animal Noises (especially Donkeys)
Recording Method: Reaper 5.9x, Tascam FireOne/Behringer UMC202HD/Avid Eleven Rack/Line 6 UX2, Win 7 PC / Win 10 Laptop
Submitting as: Cock, Chth*.*, D.A.H. (Der Alter Hahn)
Pronouns: His Infernal Majesty
Location: CT, USA
Contact:

Re: Modern democracy (was: COVID-19 freakout thread)

Post by ujnhunter »

I think you just stated in your question the answer to why... the Republicans have no fear of losing their jobs as long as the Crazy Republican is in charge... Also... there are 'legit' people... (I'm pretty sure they aren't just trying to be funny...) who think The Donald is the "Greatest President of Their Lifetime". They believe this. They really believe this. Though the same people seem to also believe that Obama was the "Worst President of Their Lifetime". So read into that what you will... but this is "real life".
-Ujn Hunter
Photovoltaik - Free 6 Track EP - Song Fight! Liner Notes
Billy's Little Trip wrote:I must have this....in my mouth.....now.
User avatar
Lunkhead
You're No Good
Posts: 8107
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:14 pm
Instruments: many
Recording Method: cubase/mac/tascam4x4
Submitting as: Berkeley Social Scene, Merisan, Tiny Robots
Pronouns: he/him
Location: Berkeley, CA
Contact:

Re: Modern democracy (was: COVID-19 freakout thread)

Post by Lunkhead »

Caravan Ray, here is an example of why the Republicans and people in the White House are too chicken shit to stop the insanity:

https://www.sfchronicle.com/news/articl ... 406153.php

If Trump turns on them, they lose their positions, they lose their elections, etc.
User avatar
Caravan Ray
bono
bono
Posts: 8647
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:51 pm
Instruments: Penis
Recording Method: Garageband
Submitting as: Caravan Ray,G.O.R.T.E.C,Lyricburglar,The Thugs from the Scallop Industry
Location: Toowoomba, Queensland
Contact:

Re: Modern democracy (was: COVID-19 freakout thread)

Post by Caravan Ray »

Lunkhead wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:40 pm
Caravan Ray, here is an example of why the Republicans and people in the White House are too chicken shit to stop the insanity:

https://www.sfchronicle.com/news/articl ... 406153.php

If Trump turns on them, they lose their positions, they lose their elections, etc.
I really don’t understand that. How can one bloke have so much power!?! Seems to be harking back to the “team” thing I brought up earlier. The Republicans don’t seem like an actual political party or “ team”. Just a random collection of nut jobs. (And I suspect that the other party is probably pretty similar)

It is like it is the exact opposite to here. Here, the party machines are all powerful - individuals are nothing. You may or may not have heard of the names Rudd, Gillard, Abbott, Turnbull. They all had a go at being the PM over the past few years. But they all fell foul of their party machines -and are all now history.

Abbott was the closest thing we have ever had to a Trump - but the “ faceless men” in his party got rid of him pretty quickly because it became pretty obvious pretty quickly that he really was a bit of a dill.
User avatar
ujnhunter
Ice Cream Man
Posts: 1804
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:09 pm
Instruments: Bass, Keyboards, Crummy Guitar & Animal Noises (especially Donkeys)
Recording Method: Reaper 5.9x, Tascam FireOne/Behringer UMC202HD/Avid Eleven Rack/Line 6 UX2, Win 7 PC / Win 10 Laptop
Submitting as: Cock, Chth*.*, D.A.H. (Der Alter Hahn)
Pronouns: His Infernal Majesty
Location: CT, USA
Contact:

Re: Modern democracy (was: COVID-19 freakout thread)

Post by ujnhunter »

Nobody cares about the dills they only care about themselves. Or they'd "rather die of COVID than have a Democrat as President" (real life quotes).
-Ujn Hunter
Photovoltaik - Free 6 Track EP - Song Fight! Liner Notes
Billy's Little Trip wrote:I must have this....in my mouth.....now.
User avatar
Lunkhead
You're No Good
Posts: 8107
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:14 pm
Instruments: many
Recording Method: cubase/mac/tascam4x4
Submitting as: Berkeley Social Scene, Merisan, Tiny Robots
Pronouns: he/him
Location: Berkeley, CA
Contact:

Re: Modern democracy (was: COVID-19 freakout thread)

Post by Lunkhead »

The Republicans don’t seem like an actual political party or “ team”. Just a random collection of nut jobs. (And I suspect that the other party is probably pretty similar)
The Republican elected officials and party leaders are a team in terms of pushing a common agenda, but, they do all seem willing to turn on each other at any moment if its to their own benefit.

Am I understanding that your executive government is not directly elected at all, but rather is derived from whichever party (or even coalition of parties) has a parliamentary majority?

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament ... rl#execgov

Do you not have any country wide election where everyone in the country is voting for one of a few candidates for some executive position?

If I'm understanding that correctly, that seems like a pretty massive difference between Australia and the US.

Our one person has so much political power here partly because they are like the anointed/chosen one of at least their party, if not the country. They have something like the divine right of kings in a way, aka a "mandate" as we call it here. They can be more than just a figurehead of their party and can push an agenda of their own. If they have voters all over the country in their sway they can wield that against anybody who disagrees with them, even within their party.

There was a movement in the Republican party in the 2000s:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_movement

They basically took over the Republican party by pushing an ultra-conservative agenda, along the way grooming a lot of Republican voters into being ripe for Trump. Then Trump came along and originally he actually kind of was an "outsider" in the sense of not being a part of the Republican party establishment. All those voters fell into the "Make America Great Again" cult of personality around him. Now they are more loyal to him than the Tea Party people. If the Republican Senate had decided Trump was a liability and had allowed him to be impeached, a lot of them probably would have lost their next elections. Basically all they care about is holding on to power at any cost, so, they go along with Trump.
User avatar
crumpart
Ice Cream Man
Posts: 1123
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:04 am
Instruments: Fuzz
Submitting as: Hot Pink Halo
Pronouns: She/her
Location: Laois, Ireland
Contact:

Re: Modern democracy (was: COVID-19 freakout thread)

Post by crumpart »

You are correct in that we don't vote for an executive position in Australia. We vote for a representative in our electorate (proportional voting, so you list people in the order you prefer and if your candidate doesn't get enough votes in the first round, it will go to the second person on your list and so on, until one person has enough of the percentage of the vote), and the party with the most MPs voted in forms government. Parties choose their own leaders, and the PM appoints the Governor General once every five years. It's pretty much the same in Ireland, but instead of the Taoiseach appointing the President (Irish figurehead of state, but doesn't make laws, etc.), there is a separate election that citizens can vote in.
Devil’s got me Lindt! Devil’s got me Lindt!
User avatar
Caravan Ray
bono
bono
Posts: 8647
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:51 pm
Instruments: Penis
Recording Method: Garageband
Submitting as: Caravan Ray,G.O.R.T.E.C,Lyricburglar,The Thugs from the Scallop Industry
Location: Toowoomba, Queensland
Contact:

Re: Modern democracy (was: COVID-19 freakout thread)

Post by Caravan Ray »

ujnhunter wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:13 am
Nobody cares about the dills they only care about themselves. Or they'd "rather die of COVID than have a Democrat as President" (real life quotes).
Same here - which is why dud leaders don’t last long. Backbenchers want to keep their seats in Parliament - so if a party leader starts to slump in popularity - they get the hook and someone who appears more palatable to the voters is elevated.

I understand you had mid- term elections where the Reps lost a lot of votes. We don’t have ‘mid-terms’ as such - but if a party leader here saw a similar drop in support - they would be out of a job by teatime. But then again - Is the President actually seen as a “party leader”? I get the impression that the Rep Party and the President are actually two quite different things.
User avatar
Caravan Ray
bono
bono
Posts: 8647
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:51 pm
Instruments: Penis
Recording Method: Garageband
Submitting as: Caravan Ray,G.O.R.T.E.C,Lyricburglar,The Thugs from the Scallop Industry
Location: Toowoomba, Queensland
Contact:

Re: Modern democracy (was: COVID-19 freakout thread)

Post by Caravan Ray »

Lunkhead wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:44 am

Our one person has so much political power here partly because they are like the anointed/chosen one of at least their party, if not the country. They have something like the divine right of kings in a way, aka a "mandate" as we call it here.
Lol. Yes, I think I made a similar observation towards the beginning of this discussion. The irony in the fact that the nation born in a revolution to remove a monarchy essentially now has a monarch with power. Whereas our constitutional monarchies in Aust/UK/can/Nz etc. have mere ceremonial figureheads.
User avatar
Lunkhead
You're No Good
Posts: 8107
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:14 pm
Instruments: many
Recording Method: cubase/mac/tascam4x4
Submitting as: Berkeley Social Scene, Merisan, Tiny Robots
Pronouns: he/him
Location: Berkeley, CA
Contact:

Re: Modern democracy (was: COVID-19 freakout thread)

Post by Lunkhead »

It's variable here. I think it depends on the cult of personality factor combined with how tied in to their party the person is. Trump is a wildcard, not really a "part" of the Republican party. He hadn't held any office before or been in any Republican administration, etc. He's donated to and partied with both Democrats and Republicans. He doesn't owe the Republican party anything, has no loyalty to them at all, and has a big popular following of his own. Plus he's not the figurehead type, he's not looking to just give speeches. I think the Republican party leaders thought they would get a halo effect from that following, by supporting him. Except since Trump only gives a shit about himself, if they do anything Trump doesn't like, Trump fires them if he can, and/or starts shit-posting to his cult followers on Twitter to try to ruin them. They probably thought they could control him too but they can't. They've created a monster that may kill us all. :(

https://flagpole.com/comics/this-modern ... ble-trump/
User avatar
Caravan Ray
bono
bono
Posts: 8647
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:51 pm
Instruments: Penis
Recording Method: Garageband
Submitting as: Caravan Ray,G.O.R.T.E.C,Lyricburglar,The Thugs from the Scallop Industry
Location: Toowoomba, Queensland
Contact:

Re: Modern democracy (was: COVID-19 freakout thread)

Post by Caravan Ray »

Lunkhead wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:44 am

Do you not have any country wide election where everyone in the country is voting for one of a few candidates for some executive position?
No. As Crumpart has explained - we vote for our local representative in the House of Representatives. And for some state representatives in the Senate. The “Government” (ie. the party with a majority in the house of Reps) chooses the executive (a cabinet of Ministers chosen from Members of either of the 2 houses). The PM is not a position defined in the Constitution - it is simply by convention the leader of the governing party.

From here - Pelosis’ position would appear to be what we would most recognise as a Prime Minister. We have nothing even slightly resembling your position of “president”.
User avatar
grumpymike
Push Comes to Shove
Posts: 418
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:12 pm
Instruments: Rage and curmudgeonry
Recording Method: Zero-turn lawnmower
Submitting as: Grumpy Mike

Re: Modern democracy (was: COVID-19 freakout thread)

Post by grumpymike »

I just listened to a podcast that lays out the history and posits some interesting theories and observations. It might be exactly what you want, Caravan Ray.

Common Sense with Dan Carlin - Show 319 - A Recipe for Caesar

The TLDR is that the invention of the radio will be grouped with the invention of the internet in future history books - the media/communication revolution will be condensed - and the beginning of kingly presidential power started with radio and president FDR’s “fireside chat” weekly radio addresses. Simultaneously, the rise of faster media has encouraged surface level, sound bite oriented, emotion-based content rather than substantive, thoughtful communication. Dan talks about his previous experience as a radio host and how he could not dive deep into topics because people are constantly flipping between stations and you need to captivate listeners and appeal to them from where they are.

Probably not the whole picture but it’s one of the better takes I’ve heard.
Post Reply