Where would you move to if <not your candidate> wins in November?

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Re: Where would you move to if <not your candidate> wins in November?

Post by Caravan Ray »

crumpart wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:41 am
Ifelt so ashamed in comparison to the level of progress back home in a country that gets more sunlight than it knows what to do with. There was also an Australian General Election while we were in Frankfurt, where the conservative right wing party was elected on the back of repealing Labor’s carbon tax. We started making general plans then to move.
And this is a really big thing.

I left Australia and moved to New Zealand after the 2004 election when the John Howard government was returned. We had had 10 year of that nasty little climate change denying, George W Bush arse-likking, refugee bashing little arshole. That values of the the people that elected that odious little cunt did not align with my values - so I left the country. It wans't the only reason - but it was a very large one.

If your values do not align with your government's values - then fuck off and go somewhere else. It is the sensible thing to do.
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Re: Where would you move to if <not your candidate> wins in November?

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.........fuck
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Re: Where would you move to if <not your candidate> wins in November?

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sorry - more repetition
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Re: Where would you move to if <not your candidate> wins in November?

Post by sleepysilverdoor »

Is it sensible? If you're not being actively persecuted, is it really worth leaving everyone you know behind? I disagree. All of my family and most of my extended family live in or near southern Appalachia. Sure, I think the US has done a lot of stupid things and I've thought the government was awful since I was old enough to start paying close attention to national politics. Sometime around the Lewinsky scandal. The government being filled with a bunch of corrupt nincompoops, however, does not personally affect me enough to leave my home and everyone I know and love, as well as the simple comforts of being at home. I don't see how me just leaving on principle is sensible at all.
-
I'll also point out that while not a gun-owner, the cat is out of the bag already here and has been for hundreds of years. You can't separate the guns from the US, for better or for worse.
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Re: Where would you move to if <not your candidate> wins in November?

Post by Caravan Ray »

sleepysilverdoor wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:57 pm
Is it sensible? If you're not being actively persecuted, is it really worth leaving everyone you know behind? I disagree.
And of course you are right. Not everyone is lucky enough to be able to just pack up and leave - as much as you may want to. Sensible - but not entirely practical.
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Re: Where would you move to if <not your candidate> wins in November?

Post by sleepysilverdoor »

I think we define sensible differently. On a lighter note, your song was well done last night!
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Re: Where would you move to if <not your candidate> wins in November?

Post by Caravan Ray »

sleepysilverdoor wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:00 am
I think we define sensible differently. On a lighter note, your song was well done last night!
Thank you. And I think many here who have known me for many years may agree with you that my definition of what may be “sensible” is sometimes debatable.

Still - when my revolution comes - every person on earth will be forced to live in at least 2 other countries besides the ones they were born in. Patriotism is a cancer which must be destroyed.
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Re: Where would you move to if <not your candidate> wins in November?

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I've visited two others. Canada wasn't so bad, I could manage it there. Mexico was a delightful place, but I'm not sure I'd want to live there full time. It's not that I have no experience with other locations, it's just I happen to enjoy where I am.

As for patriotism being a cancer: I dunno, it's more of a mixed bag. I see nothing wrong with being proud of some of the elements of the place you call home. I do see something wrong with being proud of all of them. Georgia is filled with natural beauty, a generally warm and friendly culture, and has delightful cuisine. I love me some southeastern cooking. However, you can't deny that there's some severely toxic undercurrents to the place...mostly rooted in the distant past but still persisting.
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Re: Where would you move to if <not your candidate> wins in November?

Post by Pigfarmer Jr »

I have no problem with patriotism. I have a huge problem with nationalism.
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Re: Where would you move to if <not your candidate> wins in November?

Post by sleepysilverdoor »

Pigfarmer Jr wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:47 am
I have no problem with patriotism. I have a huge problem with nationalism.
Nationalism means something a bit different depending on who you ask. Like "America's great, screw all of the other countries and we're God's chosen people to rule the world" nationalism, or "we should place our own nation's interests ahead of all others" nationalism. The former is definitely problematic, but the latter seems less so.
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Re: Where would you move to if <not your candidate> wins in November?

Post by Pigfarmer Jr »

We should place our own nation's interest ahead of all others.... by bombing the middle east, having 900+ military bases all over the world, unseating leaders and installing dictators that are supposed to be puppets but end up being problematic through the CIA, creating a military industrial complex and dark government that answers to no-one, etc., etc., etc.,

I fail to see how "We're god's country and chosen people to rule the world" is much different than the way we have allowed our government to use the second definition, at least in practice. Honestly, we should be putting our own citizen's welfare ahead of the rest of the world. But we should also be keeping our effing nose out of the rest of the world. I really, really hate to be agreeing with Ray even a little bit ;), but there you have it.
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Re: Where would you move to if <not your candidate> wins in November?

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I don't think what you just described falls under nationalism in a strict sense. Pretty much every complaint you just listed falls more under "imperialism". Imposing control over large portions of the world via overpowering military presence and meddling in other nation's affairs is essentially acting as an empire -- which is indeed a cancerous state of affairs as you say. And is stuff that while I'm sure some people support, I'm unequivocally against.

I was hoping - though I didn't vote for him and don't support him in the slightest - that the guy who ran on America first rhetoric would take more steps to actually end that. And while he didn't exactly start any new wars, he sure came close, what with the drone striking the Iranian general and all that. And all of the egging on civil unrest and shitting all over military servicemen and such. Meanwhile the last administration was marked by all kinds of dodgy stuff in Libya and Ukraine and Syria and such, so I don't know, maybe the new guy did something right. Now if this retreat from imperialist policy could be led by a leader that wasn't such a corrupt POS...I can dream for a major party candidate I actually like some day, can't I?
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Re: Where would you move to if <not your candidate> wins in November?

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He definitely didn't end the wars he said he would end. But he's the first one in a long time that didn't start a new one and he's been fighting members of both parties to bring more troops home. Now you got me defending the burnt orange hairdo.. sheesh, what a day.
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Re: Where would you move to if <not your candidate> wins in November?

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Lol I hate defending him but if he did something right it was not starting any *new* wars. I hope at least that momentum continues.

I'm still pissed about not getting paid for a month because of "the wall". Or having my colleagues at a neighboring office thrown under the bus over a damn sharpie.
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Re: Where would you move to if <not your candidate> wins in November?

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Well, this has been a very interesting conversation. THANK YOU!
I was not really expecting to debate much about the USA, more about other places.

But since we went there...
While I think the American experiment has been off the rails for decades, only recently has a major party publically and vocally supported blatant anti-constitutional acts of a sitting President's administration, and a sitting President vocally calling for violence against anyone who disagrees with him. Don't get me started on the 190,000+ deaths due largely to this President's refusal to even acknowledge this pandemic, never mind lead a response given there were plans, policies, and specialists all lined up and ready. He fired the experts, ignored the science, and encouraged everyone to believe it's all a big hoax.

I was disappointed in the escalation of drone attacks and both the Syrian and Lybian policies of Obama (which were largely Hillary's). But I can't attribute the rise of ISIS solely to Obama as I can't pin Afghanistan solely on Bush. These things have been stewing for decades, funded by the US, Russia, China, and others. As for America's faults, I have to throw in a shit-load of ALL OF US DRIVING FUCKING CARS EVERYWHERE AND FLYING EVERYWHERE ON A FUCKING WHIM. Myself included. We have a major cultural shift that's necessary in order to protect our planet from its known future. I mean protect future-us from ourselves...the planet will be fine.

As for Trump not starting any wars...dear lord, where to begin? Maybe Portland? Charlottesville?
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Re: Where would you move to if <not your candidate> wins in November?

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Hey, I never said he did a good job not stoking domestic insurgencies. Or even a good job. But domestic insurgency is not a war. It's by no means a good thing. And Trump is by no means a good president. Or even a good human being. But he's not an imperialist. Like I said: if we could have a president that could step back on all of the imperialist nonsense without being a turd in so many other ways, I'd be pleased.

Endless reams have been written about all of the nasty other shit Trump has been involved in/responsible for. There's been controversy surrounding him so far that it feels like beating a dead horse to endlessly point it all out. All I'm saying is that in terms of cutting back on "Team America World Police/Oil Thieves" nonsense, his policies there are a step in the right direction. It's just most of his other policies are a step in the WRONG direction.
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Re: Where would you move to if <not your candidate> wins in November?

Post by Caravan Ray »

roymond wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:22 pm
Well, this has been a very interesting conversation. THANK YOU!
Just in case no one else has noticed - this "Roymond" is actually a Russian trollbot - not a real person. They have been blackmailing me with copies of the "Caravan Ray Pee-Pee Tapes". Frankly - while they are a fabulous watch - I thought Dame Judy Dench was miscast. Johnny Cashpoint as Rudi Guliani though was inspired.

2 stars.
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Re: Where would you move to if <not your candidate> wins in November?

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sleepysilverdoor wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:00 am
I've visited two others. Canada wasn't so bad, I could manage it there. Mexico was a delightful place, but I'm not sure I'd want to live there full time. It's not that I have no experience with other locations, it's just I happen to enjoy where I am.
That is sort of the point. Where you are is a bit shit. And you don't get that if you stay in the shit.

A place where you give a President power to give pardons to criminals is a bit shit
A place where your President seems to be immune from prosecution is a bit shit
And - a place where this President is clearly a pice of shit - and there is a chance he may be re-elected - is a bit shit

If you think this is normal....


It isn't.

It is a bit shit
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Re: Where would you move to if <not your candidate> wins in November?

Post by Caravan Ray »

Pigfarmer Jr wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:47 am
I have no problem with patriotism. I have a huge problem with nationalism.
It is the same thing. You say tomato - I say tomato.

We live on a planet. Together. Which we are fucking up. Nations mean nothing.
I don't give a shit about what some idiot from Buttfucker, Texas thinks about mining oil or coal.

They are wrong.

Nothing to do with some 18th century idea about "nations".

Tell your President to stop being a fuckwit.
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Re: Where would you move to if <not your candidate> wins in November?

Post by Caravan Ray »

sleepysilverdoor wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:00 am
I've visited two others. Canada wasn't so bad, I could manage it there. Mexico was a delightful place, but I'm not sure I'd want to live there full time. It's not that I have no experience with other locations, it's just I happen to enjoy where I am.

As for patriotism being a cancer: I dunno, it's more of a mixed bag. I see nothing wrong with being proud of some of the elements of the place you call home. I do see something wrong with being proud of all of them. Georgia is filled with natural beauty, a generally warm and friendly culture, and has delightful cuisine. I love me some southeastern cooking. However, you can't deny that there's some severely toxic undercurrents to the place...mostly rooted in the distant past but still persisting.
Sorry - I don't mean to pick on you here - but this is sort of my point when I said:
"every person on earth will be forced to live in at least 2 other countries besides the ones they were born in. "

Yep - we all like where we live. But other places are cool too. And you will never know unless you live there.

I have lived in two different countries than what I was born in For over 2 years in each. How it changed me is - I am not an arsehole about the Australian Cricket team any more. I don't care that is patriotic shit










Geez louise - I think I agree with everything written above - but that is drunk writinf I will review tomorrow
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Re: Where would you move to if <not your candidate> wins in November?

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Other places are cool. You're not wrong. And is there a world-view expanding element to living somewhere else? Yes probably.

I'm well aware that a lot of things about the US are a bit shit...particularly the southeastern US. But it is what it is, and it's beyond my control to do much about it other than be not-shit myself to dilute the shit.

The amount of influence that political leaders that live nowhere near me have on my day to day life is extremely low. Almost nil. And I can't do anything about it anyway other than be one of a zillion votes that statistically are just a drop in the bucket. So why would I let myself get worked up into such a tizzy about it? I fundamentally don't understand why people get so worked up about it to completely uproot their lives and just leave because the grass looks greener on the other side. Besides, most people who move for that reason strike me as pretentious folks who think they're better than all those "yokels" who grew up around here anyway and that people who don't move and leave forever are uncultured. And maybe they are.

But I don't care.

What does have an impact on my local life is that I can go outside, enjoy a mild climate with a lush temperate forest surrounding me, and then walk like half a mile down the road, pick a crapload of wild muscadine grapes, take them home, and then make wine out of them in my shed. Then I can hang out in my house, write some tunes, play with my kids, hang out with my wife, and eat a nice dinner. When I'm out in public, people are generally friendly and welcoming. I have my local spots that I like, I can easily hop on the interstate and see my family just a few hours up the road. It's nice.

I don't think everyone on earth should be forced to *live* somewhere else. Some people do just fine where they are. Besides, the US is huge. I've lived in Alaska, south Texas, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Georgia. The latter 3 are pretty simular culturally. South Texas has a very distinct culture with a strong influence from being so close to Mexico. And in Alaska you find pronounced frontier mentality. Yeah, sure I didn't move out of country. But I had no reason to beyond people telling me "it would enrich me". My life is fine as it is, and I love my small Georgia town on the southernn outskirts of the Atlanta metro.
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Re: Where would you move to if <not your candidate> wins in November?

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Good point, the US is huge (though not nearly as big as typical cylindrical projection suggests). And the culture, climate, infrastructure, etc. is quite varied. I've been to every state in the US and most Canadian provinces (by car!) and it's truly amazing how diverse this place is. Yet, it's nothing like Mexico, Chile, Vietnam, Japan, Indonesia, Israel, Turkey, the EU, Great Britain, Iceland, or Kenya. I've been to those places, too, and spending time in other countries not only tells you about their people and whatever, but it also tells you a lot about America. It helps you gain perspective about how we approach the big challenges and how we might change our views if we only had a different perspective. Both my in-laws and my grandparents were immigrants. Maybe that's why nationalistic BS doesn't resonate with me.

I don't want to abandon the US, and being a white middle-class guy I hardly suffer personally from its class and racial divides. It's not like I'm being kicked out of my home, being overrun by gorilla forces, or bombed. But I don't want to live in a moated castle or a McMansion behind barbed wire. I want to eat "ethnic" foods and hear other languages, sing other songs, and generally experience people not like me. I certainly DONT want to live around white supremacists and watch friends from "foreign" backgrounds getting kicked in the stomach or denied services like they're some alien creature about to eat Sigourney Weaver. I will defend Sigourney Weaver to the end! (ok, maybe "eating Sigourney Weaver" isn't so bad, but I'd like to do it rather than some alien creature. I mean, ultimately it's Sigourney's decision and I respect that).

My point is, I just wanted to survey the situation and get your feedback because I find Songfight has some really intelligent members and I value their opinions. And already I've learned a bunch here. Keep it going! Большое спасибо! Uh... I mean...thank you very much!
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