A long four years

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Pigfarmer Jr
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Re: A long four years

Post by Pigfarmer Jr »

Lunkhead wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:51 am
We could probably use some updates of the anti-democratic bits, like Senate representation (two Senators for every state regardless of population, with state populations now ranging from <1M to >40MM, something probably pretty unimaginable to the founders)
The senate is fine. It was never intended to follow the population. The only way this would make sense is if you want large cities to have their own senators which is probably appealing to the left but isn't fair in any sense. Otherwise it doesn't matter if you have two or ten senators per state. It isn't based on population. It's designed that all states have equal representation in one house of congress.

It's the house that's not followed the original intent. There should be a LOT more representatives based on population. This would actually benefit the left over the right.
and the Electoral College.
We'll never agree on this one. I think the electoral college is an accidental genius. Remember, we're not a democracy, but a republic. Individual rights are lost in a democracy.
Now that we one of our two parties is acting almost entirely in bad faith we probably need strengthening of the checks and balances. To your main point, yes, we could probably use some more/clearer limits on the executive branch.
The executive branch has been expanding it's power for well over a hundred years. It needs to be VERY limited and not only for the reason you mentioned. The problem is when Bush was in office (for instance) the republicans had no problem with the executive branch expanding it's power too further it's agenda. Likewise, when Obama was in office (for another instance) the democrats had no problem with the executive branch expanding it's power. I, for one, was saying "remember this when the next republican is elected" repeatedly. As a result I was called a republican, right wing extremist, a truther and worse.
Most of this is about corruption, IMO. I think both parties are corrupt in terms of serving moneyed interests, and one party is also corrupt in terms of pursuing power by any means and at all costs...
Both parties are corrupt in terms of pursuing power by any means and at all costs... There are too many documented instances on both sides for this to be debatable, imo.
But to me that's the nut of all of human governance. Power corrupts, how do we have governments which don't become corrupt? Most people who seek out power over others seem to be the ones who are least trustworthy with that power.
I agree with this completely. What's the solution? It definitely isn't giving more power to people who aren't held accountable for their mistakes and who profit from selling their influence.
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Re: A long four years

Post by ujnhunter »

In the words of one of my favorite local bands, Chained to the Bottom of the Ocean:

"Send every god and king.
Ten thousand soldiers bodies
Buried underground.
Watch as their castles bleed
Watch their eyes fall out.
Leave them all in the ditches,
Fill the graves to the grasses
Turn the sickness into doubt
For reckoning.
Leech upon their soils, we shall keep.

When will we be freed?
When will we be freed?

Send every god and king.
Loss of control and solidarity impeached, embrace eternal discipline.
Tear away this obstruction
Piece by piece."
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Re: A long four years

Post by grumpymike »

I really hope Biden can unify the country like he promised, and I hope folks allow him to do that.
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Re: A long four years

Post by Lunkhead »

Pigfarmer Jr wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:33 am
The senate is fine. It was never intended to follow the population. The only way this would make sense is if you want large cities to have their own senators which is probably appealing to the left but isn't fair in any sense. Otherwise it doesn't matter if you have two or ten senators per state. It isn't based on population. It's designed that all states have equal representation in one house of congress.
Maybe I am misunderstanding, which is very possible, but, it sounds like you're saying that it's a good thing for states to have equal representation and not people. Am I reading that correctly? If so, why is that a good thing? To me a "state" is a relatively arbitrary thing. It's not like everyone gets an equal opportunity to choose what state they are born/live in and therefore states are meaningful groupings of like minded people or anything at all like that, in my opinion.
Pigfarmer Jr wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:33 am
It's the house that's not followed the original intent. There should be a LOT more representatives based on population. This would actually benefit the left over the right.
Again, honest question, how would that help? It seems like when one party controls the House and the other party controls the Senate, it can be problematic in terms of e.g. helping the country during a nationwide health and resulting economic crisis.
Pigfarmer Jr wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:33 am
and the Electoral College.
We'll never agree on this one. I think the electoral college is an accidental genius. Remember, we're not a democracy, but a republic. Individual rights are lost in a democracy.
What "individual rights" would be in jeopardy in a democracy that are not in a republic? I'm not contesting that assertion, necessarily, just looking for some more specific details.
Pigfarmer Jr wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:33 am
The executive branch has been expanding it's power for well over a hundred years. It needs to be VERY limited and not only for the reason you mentioned. The problem is when Bush was in office (for instance) the republicans had no problem with the executive branch expanding it's power too further it's agenda. Likewise, when Obama was in office (for another instance) the democrats had no problem with the executive branch expanding it's power. I, for one, was saying "remember this when the next republican is elected" repeatedly. As a result I was called a republican, right wing extremist, a truther and worse.
Agreed there.
Pigfarmer Jr wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:33 am
Both parties are corrupt in terms of pursuing power by any means and at all costs... There are too many documented instances on both sides for this to be debatable, imo.
Hard disagree. The GOP has gone to extreme lengths to undermine our electoral process the last 4+ years. I don't love the Dems either and I know they're not saints, but, they are not equivalent in that respect at all. Look at what is happening right now every day in terms of who is attacking faith in our electoral process.
Pigfarmer Jr wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:33 am
I agree with this completely. What's the solution? It definitely isn't giving more power to people who aren't held accountable for their mistakes and who profit from selling their influence.
Accountability is paramount. Of course, then we have to make sure the accountability isn't corrupt or politically motivated, etc. Who watches the watchers and whatnot. :/
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Re: A long four years

Post by Lunkhead »

grumpymike wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:13 am
I really hope Biden can unify the country like he promised, and I hope folks allow him to do that.
I'm sure Mitch McConnell will be totally down for that. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: A long four years

Post by Pigfarmer Jr »

I never should have posted so much at once. Sheesh.
Lunkhead wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:11 pm
Maybe I am misunderstanding, which is very possible, but, it sounds like you're saying that it's a good thing for states to have equal representation and not people. Am I reading that correctly? If so, why is that a good thing? To me a "state" is a relatively arbitrary thing. It's not like everyone gets an equal opportunity to choose what state they are born/live in and therefore states are meaningful groupings of like minded people or anything at all like that, in my opinion.
Right now in the U.S. House California has 53 representatives. Missouri has 8. That's fair based on population. (More or less, this is actually a little contentious because of the idea of taking a representative way from a state that has either lost population or hasn't grown as fast and giving it to another state that has gained population. This could actually hurt CA due to some migration to other states, namely Texas.)

Now both states have two senators. So when it comes to some sort of legislation that affects the whole country if California had 12 senators and Missouri only had 2 (in the house CA has approximately 6x the representatives) then when would Missouri ever get their interests represented?

As another example, Texas has 36 House seats. With proportional representation in the senate they would have 6-7 senators to Missouri's 2.

In either case, I'd like to have my state equally represented at some point in the political process. Can't happen if you go solely by population in both halves of congress.
Again, honest question, how would that help? It seems like when one party controls the House and the other party controls the Senate, it can be problematic in terms of e.g. helping the country during a nationwide health and resulting economic crisis.
In theory. Is it worth losing any reigning in of the opposition party decades for one year in a pandemic? Remember, the Patriot Act was passed with a majority voting for it from both parties and was signed by Obama. It is the most egregious intrusion on citizen rights passed in decades. Imagine if the republicans of the late cold war era or the modern democrats had complete control where we would be now?

Plus, if any state really thought that their senators weren't representing them they would get rid of them. Are you sure that your issue is that there are people that disagree with the way to handle the pandemic and you don't want their representatives to be able to stop what you think is the correct course of action?

My best argument, though, is that it should be a state's decision, or better yet, a city and county decision. There is nothing keeping California from enacting measures that Oregon or Montana decline to enact. And, in fact, I'd argue that is a good thing. A state or county with a mostly rural population shouldn't be responding the same way as a state or city (or county) with the population of.. say L.A. or San Francisco.
What "individual rights" would be in jeopardy in a democracy that are not in a republic? I'm not contesting that assertion, necessarily, just looking for some more specific details.
You have no rights if a simple majority of voters can take them away. Not to be too crude, but gang rape is a form of democracy with the victim being out voted by his or her attackers.
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Re: A long four years

Post by Lunkhead »

Pigfarmer Jr wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:47 pm
In either case, I'd like to have my state equally represented at some point in the political process.
And why do you want your state equally represented? It means that you personally will be over represented, so I get how that's appealing, but, I don't get how that's fair.
Pigfarmer Jr wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:47 pm
Is it worth losing any reigning in of the opposition party decades for one year in a pandemic?
What if we rephrased that as "Is it worth losing any reigning in of the opposition party for decades for 230000 and counting dead Americans out of 10M and counting sick Americans?". I would take that chance.
Pigfarmer Jr wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:47 pm
Plus, if any state really thought that their senators weren't representing them they would get rid of them.
Their terms are six years long, then factor in how much more likely incumbents are to win, plus doing what people want apparently has little correlation with being reelected anyway. So I think you're overestimating how easy or likely that is.
Pigfarmer Jr wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:47 pm
Are you sure that your issue is that there are people that disagree with the way to handle the pandemic and you don't want their representatives to be able to stop what you think is the correct course of action?
It's a national crisis so I think a national response is appropriate, both medically and economically. A national response doesn't mean a "one size fits all" approach either.
Pigfarmer Jr wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:47 pm
My best argument, though, is that it should be a state's decision, or better yet, a city and county decision. There is nothing keeping California from enacting measures that Oregon or Montana decline to enact. And, in fact, I'd argue that is a good thing. A state or county with a mostly rural population shouldn't be responding the same way as a state or city (or county) with the population of.. say L.A. or San Francisco.
I don't think anybody has been trying to push for any kind of one size fits all mandate, although, it may be that that is what is required, because this virus is very very contagious, and if people are traveling between areas with different rules it will spread regardless of how strict any one state gets about it. This is an unusual circumstance in that sense, IMO.
Pigfarmer Jr wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:47 pm
You have no rights if a simple majority of voters can take them away. Not to be too crude, but gang rape is a form of democracy with the victim being out voted by his or her attackers.
Ugh, gross. :roll: Also, you are a white dude, you are really not in any jeopardy of having your rights taken away from you, especially not by the party that's not openly fascist/white-supremacist.
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Re: A long four years

Post by crumpart »

Staying way out of this conversation except to request people don’t use “rape” as a metaphor please.
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Re: A long four years

Post by Pigfarmer Jr »

Lunkhead wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:19 pm
And why do you want your state equally represented? It means that you personally will be over represented, so I get how that's appealing, but, I don't get how that's fair.
I guess ask any member of the European Union why they don't want to be represented by population. Do you honestly not see how a split congress (one based on population and one on geography) is a real attempt at fairness or are you trolling me?
What if we rephrased that as "Is it worth losing any reigning in of the opposition party for decades for 230000 and counting dead Americans out of 10M and counting sick Americans?". I would take that chance.
What can be accomplished at the federal level that can't be done at the state level? The only answer I can come up with is deficit spending. They can send out trillions of dollars (some of it to people, a lot of it to cronies) to offset the huge economic costs associated with the lockdown. That's a big one, I admit. But the Republican version vs the Democrat version was just a matter of how much and when (once you take away some of the crony spending on both sides.) Remember, the Republicans had a bill ready to go that the Nancy refused to even vote on because "it didn't go far enough." Which to me is idiotic. Pass it, or at least vote on it, and then put forth an additional one. The Democrats could have gotten most of what they wanted if they would have pieced it together. Unless they wanted to save political face or what they wanted really didn't have anything to do with helping citizens.

Their terms are six years long, then factor in how much more likely incumbents are to win, plus doing what people want apparently has little correlation with being reelected anyway. So I think you're overestimating how easy or likely that is.
That's typically true. And I guess if Cuomo can keep his support after sending sick old people back to nursing homes way back at the beginning of the pandemic is any indicator then you're point is very, very valid.

But I think we both agree on term limits. So that's one solution. I also think that if it's egregious enough and the opposition actually puts forth a decent candidate then representatives get voted out. Clinton vs Trump proves that neither party can be counted on to put forth their best candidate, though.
It's a national crisis so I think a national response is appropriate, both medically and economically. A national response doesn't mean a "one size fits all" approach either.
If only we had an organization like the CDC that "Assists state and local authorities in surveillance and outbreak investigations; by invitation, provides laboratory and epidemiology support; participates in multistate and international outbreaks."
I don't think anybody has been trying to push for any kind of one size fits all mandate, although, it may be that that is what is required,


Then why do you need both houses of congress to be one party?
if people are traveling between areas with different rules it will spread regardless of how strict any one state gets about it.
Which is exactly why you don't a one size fits all policy. If we would have locked down the entire country when New York first started spiking, we would be looking at catastrophic damages (in both economic terms and in unintended deaths.) The, in my opinion, premature lockdown here has already been projected to cause additional deaths from a lack of pre-screening and it resulted in at least two deaths (that I'm aware of) from surgeries that were postponed. (If you think that two isn't much, compare that to a total of four deaths from COVID at the time.)
Lunkhead wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:19 pm
Pigfarmer Jr wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:47 pm
You have no rights if a simple majority of voters can take them away. Not to be too crude, but gang rape is a form of democracy with the victim being out voted by his or her attackers.
Ugh, gross. :roll: Also, you are a white dude, you are really not in any jeopardy of having your rights taken away from you, especially not by the party that's not openly fascist/white-supremacist.
I noticed you didn't provide an argument about democracy.

I'd like to point out that we all lost some of our rights when the Patriot Act was passed with support from both parties and signed into law by Obama as just one example.

Do you remember when San Fran was trying to outlaw circumcision? I brought up to my friend, Mike Skliar (who has submitted here once or twice back with Hoops back when he was alive) and he insisted that it was some midwestern red state. I mean, certainly, no true blue city would EVER discriminate against his religion, right? And he's a white male. What's the odds? To be fair, you're right, it was the democrats doing the rights taking away thing in this case.
(To be fair, I honestly don't know how I feel about circumcision. I can see that it is a religious ritual that has been in place for thousands of years and I also see it as no longer necessary in today's world of science and medicine. My grandfather wasn't circumcised, but his male children were because he saw how easy infection and other problems were solved through the surgery.)

And finally, I've had many of these discussions with an employee that's black. If I bring him in to make these arguments for me then do they suddenly become valid? Asking for a friend.
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Re: A long four years

Post by Pigfarmer Jr »

crumpart wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:59 am
Staying way out of this conversation except to request people don’t use “rape” as a metaphor please.
It's not a metaphor. It's an example.

Sorry, I guess I could have used lynching as another example. Although, it's less universal.
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Re: A long four years

Post by jb »

Man, I’m not sure why you feel you have to escalate like that. WTF.
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Re: A long four years

Post by sleepysilverdoor »

What's he escalating? Other than a particularly crude analogy I don't wholly agree with, I see no particular escalation. Democracy in its purest form is essentially mob rule, which is the exact reason why representative democracy was put into place.

RE: Rape analogy. I'd consider it more of a metaphor than an example, as getting outvoted by a dominate majority isn't in the same category as mob commiting an act of sexual violence againsnt you. The fact that he's arguing as a white man is a non-argument, and to discredit an argument entirely on that is to make an argument in bad faith.

RE: "[...] right's taken away, especially not by the party that's not openly fascist/white-supremacist.". Tell that to all of the mostly rural white folks around here who flagrantly oppose any form of gun control. While I don't personally hold that viewpoint, I know many, many people who do and consider any gun control legislation to be precisely that -- the removal of a right by the democratic party. Also, while most white supremacists are pretty far right, the Republican party is not inherently a white supremacist organization, despite the prominence of white supremacists. I know many, many Republicans without an ounce of white supremacy in their body. Many of these are evangelical pro-lifers or family values market investor types. I also know some that are pretty blatantly racist fucks. But you can't broad brush the entire party as a white-supremacist organization without it coming off the same way as all of those attack ads that run on TV around here accusing literally every Democrat of being a socialist who wants to take your guns. Hyperbole helps no stances. Besides, my wife and I both have at least one uncle that's a lifelong Democrat but pretty openly prejudiced against certain ethnic groups. In this case, Arabs and Mexicans depending on the respective uncle.

That being said, YES the Republican party governs in bad faith all the time. See Merrick Garland as a prime example. See the endless stonewalling of literally everything attempted to be done by the Obama administration. I detest most of the governing style and rhetoric that comes out of that party.

I don't entirely disagree that having one party in charge is a fundamentally bad thing -- at least not to the same degree that Pigfarmer does. But I see his point and I do somewhat agree with it on a philosophical level.

I do entirely agree that there is absolutely a need for states to have at least one governing body where they are equally represented -- otherwise, what's the point in even having states as a distinct political entity on the national level? The federal government should step in to prevent basic human rights abuses and provide governance in situations where it strengthens the nation as a whole. It makes no sense in my eyes for the higher population of California or Texas or whatever to mean that they should have more sway in the running of the country on every level than a place like Missouri or Georgia. That already exists in the house, which probably needs to be re-partitioned anyway since population has changed a lot over the years. The senate exists so that each sub-unit of the country can ensure that it has a voice.
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Re: A long four years

Post by jb »

I don’t care if it’s a metaphor or an example. And I don’t care if you think it’s an escalation. Feel free to continue to argue semantics though.

Just please refrain from using rape and lynching as metaphors or examples or whatever you want to call them in discussions that are not about those topics.

I’d prefer people settle these things via PM than on a public thread, but sometimes things get out of hand, and sometimes it’s nerve wracking to be direct, so I get it.

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sleepysilverdoor wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:22 am
What's he escalating? Other than a particularly crude analogy I don't wholly agree with, I see no particular escalation. Democracy in its purest form is essentially mob rule, which is the exact reason why representative democracy was put into place.

RE: Rape analogy. I'd consider it more of a metaphor than an example, as getting outvoted by a dominate majority isn't in the same category as mob commiting an act of sexual violence againsnt you. The fact that he's arguing as a white man is a non-argument, and to discredit an argument entirely on that is to make an argument in bad faith. [\quote]
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Re: A long four years

Post by Lunkhead »

Pigfarmer Jr wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 7:41 am
crumpart wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:59 am
Staying way out of this conversation except to request people don’t use “rape” as a metaphor please.
It's not a metaphor. It's an example.

Sorry, I guess I could have used lynching as another example. Although, it's less universal.
Rape and lynching are very real, very traumatic things. Please read the Forum Rules and consider that casual use or abuse of those terms could be considered harassment.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=11849

Also:

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/san-franc ... d=14179024

It wasn't the government trying to do that, it was a city-level ballot initiative backed by some weirdos. Ballot initiatives and state propositions are mechanisms that let people/corporations/special interests etc. put laws up for a vote, if they just spend enough money and get enough signatures.
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Re: A long four years

Post by Lunkhead »

sleepysilverdoor wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:22 am
The fact that he's arguing as a white man is a non-argument, and to discredit an argument entirely on that is to make an argument in bad faith.
Who is saying these things is not the point. Those terms are very traumatic to people and tossing them around casually in a disrespectful way could be considered harassing, and in our community we don't want people being harassed. In this case a community member even called it out. The response was basically to stand by what was said and even go farther. That could be considered "escalation". Please just focus on your opinions on the topics/issues and illustrate your points in ways that don't involve terms of violence against others.
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Re: A long four years

Post by Pigfarmer Jr »

jb wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:40 am
Man, I’m not sure why you feel you have to escalate like that. WTF.
I admit I purposefully cited the two most egregious examples I could think of. But it wasn't intended to piss people off or to be an asshole. If I cited simple robbery etc., then someone always comes back with an exception to the rule. There are no exceptions to those two cases, though. I used them to stop a further argument not to cause ill will. That being said, we all come to this place from different perspectives. Being respectful of that is not asking too much.

re: escalation. Instead of simply ignoring it, or apologizing, I doubled down. I bristled when I should have taken a moment and realized that nothing we say on this board is worth hurting the nurturing and creative community that somehow survives in this modern day of social media etc.,

I'll be more considerate in the future.
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Re: A long four years

Post by Lunkhead »

Sorry if I inadvertently sounded like I was saying "all Republicans" or "all conservative people" etc. I meant to be making points about the GOP as a party (not the GOP voters) and its leadership specifically. (Even that I know is not all 100% the same but they are largely unified in their positions.) I understand the 70MM+ people who voted for Trump are not all the same and have different views and are not all white supremacists etc.
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Pigfarmer Jr
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Re: A long four years

Post by Pigfarmer Jr »

Lunkhead wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:35 am
sleepysilverdoor wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:22 am
The fact that he's arguing as a white man is a non-argument, and to discredit an argument entirely on that is to make an argument in bad faith.
Who is saying these things is not the point. Those terms are very traumatic to people and tossing them around casually in a disrespectful way could be considered harassing, and in our community we don't want people being harassed. In this case a community member even called it out. The response was basically to stand by what was said and even go farther. That could be considered "escalation". Please just focus on your opinions on the topics/issues and illustrate your points in ways that don't involve terms of violence against others.
I believe he was commenting on your "white dudes" comment in a previous post.
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Re: A long four years

Post by sleepysilverdoor »

I was commenting specifically on this.
Lunkhead wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:19 pm
Pigfarmer Jr wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:47 pm
You have no rights if a simple majority of voters can take them away. Not to be too crude, but gang rape is a form of democracy with the victim being out voted by his or her attackers.
Ugh, gross. :roll: Also, you are a white dude, you are really not in any jeopardy of having your rights taken away from you, especially not by the party that's not openly fascist/white-supremacist.
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Re: A long four years

Post by Lunkhead »

Ah, yeah. White guys have always had the most rights of anybody in this country. So when one of us complains "my rights are threatened!" it's hard for me to understand. Who is targeting white guys' rights? "Everyone's rights!" though, like in case of the Patriot Act infringing everyone's right to privacy, is a different story, and it sounds like we agree on that front.
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Re: A long four years

Post by sleepysilverdoor »

Apologies if I'm overly pedantic. I am indeed overly pedantic, always have been. It's just what I do. Nor do I tend to have particularly strong responses to things like analogies or metaphors or examples or whatever that stray far into territory that riles most people. Anyway, I tend to approach controversial things in an extremely dry and detached way which can come off as insensitive...I mean well.

Anyway: any time that I see white people complaining about any specific right being taken away, most of the time it's a completely ludicrous and baseless accusation. I just get annoyed whenever I see an entire argument or line of reasoning shot down with "you're a white man". Even if I know that it's coming from another white man. It just seemed like an unnecessary privilege check and maybe I misread the subtext there.
"There's a lot to be said about a full-on frontal assault on the ear drums" - Pigfarmer Jr.
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Re: A long four years

Post by jb »

Pigfarmer, I appreciate your thoughtful response. Thanks.
sleepysilverdoor wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
I just get annoyed whenever I see an entire argument or line of reasoning shot down with "you're a white man". Even if I know that it's coming from another white man. It just seemed like an unnecessary privilege check and maybe I misread the subtext there.
Just don't use atrocities as examples for the sake of argument. Sorry if there's nothing that's quite as apt or definitive as those atrocities, but please use something else to make your argument. That's all.

JB
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