US representative shot

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Re: US representative shot

Postby Caravan Ray » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:30 pm

Generic wrote:The first thing I'd like to point out is that someone who was clearly deranged and had intent, such as our shooter Mr. Loughner, would have had means to obtain a gun regardless of whether it was legal..

I see. So it follows that someone who was clearly deranged and had intent to be a child molester, will probably molest children anyway regardless of whether it was legal. Therefore, child molestation should be legal.
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Re: US representative shot

Postby Caravan Ray » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:51 pm

Generic wrote:I am wholly unconvinced at the argument that removing Americans' legal access to guns will put an end to violent crime.

And you would be entirely right. Criminals will commit crime. They alway shave. Always will.
(EDIT...Sorry, That is meant to say "They alway have. Always will." I'm pretty sure that criminals don't always shave)

What it completely puzzling to most Australians is why Americans what to have millions of deadly weapons floating around. The idea that somehow owning a gun can somehow defend you from being the victim of crime is pure fantasy. The simply fact is, the vast majority of assult, sexual assault etc occurs domestically. The victim and attacker are usually known to each other. The presence of guns will not stop these, only exacerbate them.

When it comes to the 'random' type crimes like burglary, where the victim is not known to the attacker - again, all the presence of a gun will do is to potentially escalate a petty crime to a homicide. I have twice caught burglars in my house. Both times, teenage kids nicking cameras, jewelley, CDs etc. Both times - they run away, I call the police, insurance company pays me, I buy new stuff. Minor inconvenience - but nobody hurt. I shudder to think how those incidents may have played out if there had been any sort of firearms in the vicinity

Generic wrote:Second of all, are there no hunters in Australia? Hunting is a huge sport over here in the U.S., and especially in rural areas many people kill and prepare their own meat to be more self-reliant and save money.

Guns are very useful tools for managing feral animals. Pigs, goats, rabbits, foxes etc need to be shot. Some people like to shoot these things for fun as well. And there is nothing stopping people with legitimate uses for a gun from owning one, so long as they are properly licensed to do so. Owning a deadly firearm is an activity licensed by State to those who have been assessed as having met a certain set of conditions . It is not a "right".
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Re: US representative shot

Postby Billy's Little Trip » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:26 pm

Caravan Ray wrote:
Generic wrote:The first thing I'd like to point out is that someone who was clearly deranged and had intent, such as our shooter Mr. Loughner, would have had means to obtain a gun regardless of whether it was legal..

I see. So it follows that someone who was clearly deranged and had intent to be a child molester, will probably molest children anyway regardless of whether it was legal. Therefore, child molestation should be legal.

So basically what you're saying is that if the shooter used a cannon and shot children at the congresswoman, he could have killed two birds (as it were) with one cannon?

Two questions:
1. Wouldn't the crowd notice a guy wheeling a cannon into place and pointing it towards the congresswoman?

2. Loading the children would not be an easy task. When my kids were little, just trying to get them in the shopping cart at the grocery store was next to impossible. I try to get their legs in, they would stick a leg out and laugh at me struggling to maneuver them into the seat. Loading them in a cannon while cussing and telling them they are going to get a time out if they don't get in the goddamn cannon would be hell and attract a lot of attention, I would think.

edit: wait, I just realized I misunderstood you and you never mentioned a cannon. Never mind.
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Re: US representative shot

Postby Generic » Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:32 pm

Caravan Ray wrote:
Generic wrote:The first thing I'd like to point out is that someone who was clearly deranged and had intent, such as our shooter Mr. Loughner, would have had means to obtain a gun regardless of whether it was legal..

I see. So it follows that someone who was clearly deranged and had intent to be a child molester, will probably molest children anyway regardless of whether it was legal. Therefore, child molestation should be legal.


No, but no one should be banning the sale of candy. See what I'm saying?

Caravan Ray wrote:
Generic wrote:Second of all, are there no hunters in Australia? Hunting is a huge sport over here in the U.S., and especially in rural areas many people kill and prepare their own meat to be more self-reliant and save money.

Guns are very useful tools for managing feral animals. Pigs, goats, rabbits, foxes etc need to be shot. Some people like to shoot these things for fun as well. And there is nothing stopping people with legitimate uses for a gun from owning one, so long as they are properly licensed to do so. Owning a deadly firearm is an activity licensed by State to those who have been assessed as having met a certain set of conditions . It is not a "right".


What does that licensing process look like in Australia? Because here in the U.S. you need a license for firearms (in most if not all states, I think) - the difference seems to be that ours is easier to obtain.
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Re: US representative shot

Postby Billy's Little Trip » Sat Jan 15, 2011 6:54 pm

Oh boy, it just keeps getting better.
http://www.startribune.com/nation/113824374.html

"PHOENIX - One of the Arizona shooting victims was arrested Saturday and then taken for a psychiatric evaluation after authorities said he took a picture of a tea party leader at televised town hall meeting and yelled: "you're dead."

Camera ban?
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Re: US representative shot

Postby Caravan Ray » Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:37 pm

Generic wrote:
Caravan Ray wrote:
Generic wrote:The first thing I'd like to point out is that someone who was clearly deranged and had intent, such as our shooter Mr. Loughner, would have had means to obtain a gun regardless of whether it was legal..

I see. So it follows that someone who was clearly deranged and had intent to be a child molester, will probably molest children anyway regardless of whether it was legal. Therefore, child molestation should be legal.


No, but no one should be banning the sale of candy. See what I'm saying?

No - not really. Very few candies can be used to kill 6 people and wound 14 others in a matter of seconds.

Tortured analogies aside. There is simply no reason for private citizens to be wandering around armed with guns. That it is allowed in the USA is something I find nothing short of mind-boggling.

Generic wrote:
Caravan Ray wrote:
Generic wrote:Second of all, are there no hunters in Australia? Hunting is a huge sport over here in the U.S., and especially in rural areas many people kill and prepare their own meat to be more self-reliant and save money.

Guns are very useful tools for managing feral animals. Pigs, goats, rabbits, foxes etc need to be shot. Some people like to shoot these things for fun as well. And there is nothing stopping people with legitimate uses for a gun from owning one, so long as they are properly licensed to do so. Owning a deadly firearm is an activity licensed by State to those who have been assessed as having met a certain set of conditions . It is not a "right".


What does that licensing process look like in Australia? Because here in the U.S. you need a license for firearms (in most if not all states, I think) - the difference seems to be that ours is easier to obtain.

I have no idea. I have never met anyone with a gun licence.

Though a quick google shows this is what you need to do in Queensland:
http://www.police.qld.gov.au/programs/w ... ng/obtain/

Essentially, they will only be issued to people with a valid reason for owning a gun ("Genuine reason/s for Category A and B include recreational shooting, sports or target shooting, primary production and occupational reasons."), who have adequate means of storing the weapon, and who are deemed to be eligible persons for the purpose - ie, no criminal record, and no domestic violence orders - as well as a very broad definition of "fit and proper":

However, in determining a person’s “fit and proper” status for the issue, renewal, suspension or revocation of a licence an Authorised Officer must also consider:

i) the mental and physical fitness of the person; and

ii) whether a domestic violence order has been made against the person; and

iii) whether the person has stated anything false or misleading on or in connection with an application or renewal of application; and

iv) whether there is any criminal intelligence or other information to which the authorised officer has access; and

v) the public interest.



Hence - if I were to apply for a licence, it would be refused as I have no valid reason for owning a gun. When I owned a farm, I could have gotten one for the purpose of euthanasing stock - but there was no need, because the vet had one.


Re the recent case in Arizona - it was my understanding that this bloke simply wandered into a store and bought a military style weapon completely legally. This is a dude with a criminal record. And a dude that had been chucked out of Uni pending a mental health clearance. Those two facts would have stopped his application in Qld immediately. Yet in the USA he can legally wander around with a automatic pistol down his dacks?!?!? That is insane!
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Re: US representative shot

Postby BBABM » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:15 pm

I agree that in no way does owning a gun keep you out of harms way... A big dog would be better. However if you look at the statistics, in countries where it is harder to get a gun, you are more likely to get mugged, your house to be broken into while you are home, and violent non-gun related crime. The uk is a good example of this. Arizona also has much less stringent gun laws because most of the state is rural. You are allowed to drive with a loaded firearm in your car... That seems crazy to me.
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Re: US representative shot

Postby Caravan Ray » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:12 pm

BBABM wrote: However if you look at the statistics, in countries where it is harder to get a gun, you are more likely to get mugged, your house to be broken into while you are home, and violent non-gun related crime. The uk is a good example of this.

I find this a bit hard to believe.


According to this website:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_a ... per-capita

Assaults seem to be pretty much exactly the same in most major developed english speaking democracies:

Assaults (per capita) (most recent) by country
# 6 United States: 7.56923 per 1,000 people
# 7 New Zealand: 7.47881 per 1,000 people
# 8 United Kingdom: 7.45959 per 1,000 people
# 9 Canada: 7.11834 per 1,000 people
# 10 Australia: 7.02459 per 1,000 people


As would be expected - those 5 countries are all very similar - because they are very similar societies. The big difference is when you look at homicide:

Murders (per capita) (most recent) by country

# 24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
...
# 43 Australia: 0.0150324 per 1,000 people
# 44 Canada: 0.0149063 per 1,000 people
...
# 46 United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people
...
# 52 New Zealand: 0.0111524 per 1,000 people

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... per-capita


What possible reason could there be for the USA to have a murder rate almost 3 times more than similar countries? I would suggest that this may have something to do with it:

Guns per 100 residents by country

1 United States 90.0

9 Canada 31.5

13 New Zealand 26.8

17 Australia 15.5

29 United Kingdom 5.6

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... _ownership
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Re: US representative shot

Postby Billy's Little Trip » Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:29 am

OK, I've given this much thought. I've read all of evidence. My Conclusion.

America #1
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Re: US representative shot

Postby BBABM » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:40 am

USA population
310,232,863 (July 2010 est.)
country comparison to the world: 3
https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... os/us.html

Aus population
21,515,754 (July 2010 est.)
country comparison to the world: 54
https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... os/as.html

Uk population
62,348,447 (July 2010 est.)
country comparison to the world: 22
https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... os/uk.html

Given those are our numbers, I'd say we have at least 4x more people to start with. And the rates Are per capital, I realize that, but with more people packed into basically the same amount of space, you are gonna have more crime.
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Re: US representative shot

Postby jast » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:23 pm

BBABM wrote:USA population
310,232,863 (July 2010 est.)
[...]
Aus population
21,515,754 (July 2010 est.)
[...]
Uk population
62,348,447 (July 2010 est.)

Given those are our numbers, I'd say we have at least 4x more people to start with. And the rates Are per capital, I realize that, but with more people packed into basically the same amount of space, you are gonna have more crime.

The USA have an average 33.7 inhabitants per square kilometre and it's 2.8 in Australia. The United Kingdom, however, clocks in at 254.7, which is more than seven times the average population density of the USA.
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Re: US representative shot

Postby Caravan Ray » Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:24 pm

BBABM wrote:.html

Given those are our numbers, I'd say we have at least 4x more people to start with. And the rates Are per capital, I realize that, but with more people packed into basically the same amount of space, you are gonna have more crime.

I thought you just told us guns led to less crime?!?!

Anyway. In the case of Australia, it isn't "more people packed into basically the same amount of space". Most of Australia is uninhabited. Most of the 20 million people here are squeezed on the eastern seaboard. Urban Australia is virtually indistinguishable from urban USA
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Re: US representative shot

Postby HeuristicsInc » Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:35 pm

BBABM wrote:ps. not to make a joke out of a tragedy, but the song behind "how to:mind controller" is frikin sweet.


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Re: US representative shot

Postby BBABM » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:39 am

Assaults are not just with guns. Urban aus may be indistinguishable from urban us, but the point I failed to make was we have more. Yes, you have big, heavily populated cities, but we have more in number, and bigger.

Most populous city in aus.
Sydney 3,641,422
Melbourne 3,371,888
 Brisbane 1,676,389

Most populous city in USA
NYC 8,391,881

Our biggest city has almost the same amount of people as your 3 biggest...
I never said guns led to less crime, I said that there crimes which are less likely to happen if you are armed, but their rare occurrence makes that moot. I suck at arguing, if that wasn't obvious. Basically I'm saying that guns don't make America violent... us being absolutely insane, overpopulated, broke, and our extremely inflated egos are why we are violent... We cant just go to a walmart and walk out with an assault rifle and start capping people in the parking lot, it is harder to get a LEGAL gun than that.
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Re: US representative shot

Postby Caravan Ray » Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:09 pm

BBABM wrote:Basically I'm saying that guns don't make America violent...

I agree that guns don't make America violent. I don't think America is any more of less violent than another other similar modern industrial nations. My point is that the huge number of guns in the USA and their easy availability make the consequences of this violence far more severe in America than in analogous nation. One manifestation of this is the 3-fold murder rate than that of similar nations
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Re: US representative shot

Postby BBABM » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:23 pm

At least we do a better job than Russia... According to that list you put up, basically all if eastern europe, africa and Latin America are effed. Columbia? WTF?

Check out kidnappings though
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_k ... idnappings

Especially the amount of assult victims
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_a ... lt-victims

I agree with you that our ease of access to firearms makes it easy for us to kill people... And unfortunately we do it a lot.

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