Nur Ein XI- Round Six

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Re: Nur Ein XI- Round Six

Postby Niveous » Thu Jun 02, 2016 12:59 pm

Okay, it seems clear to me that you want a stricter Nur Ein. Fine. I'll remember that for next year. Next year, we will be as clear as we can be and then when people play around with the challenges (like when someone makes an electro shock song in a current events challenge), we will dock them points right off the top.

So, next year. The Nur Ein hammer comes down.

For now, too bad. Not going to change what is done.
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Re: Nur Ein XI- Round Six

Postby Chumpy » Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:05 pm

glennny wrote:It was later clarified that having more than 3 parts was okay.
It was 'clarified' by one judge who clearly stated it was simply his opinion.
noma wrote:By the way, just to clarify, if you'd rather do a 4, 5 or 7 part song in under three minutes, I won't mind (as long as it's good, which obviously gets harder when trying to cram in more parts; and of course, that's just my opinion, not necessarily all five judges').

All three judges who weighed in expressed some doubts about how you handled the challenge, so I guess we didn't share Mr. Soma's view. Although I'll admit nobody came out and said you failed, which is understandably frustrating.
inevitableguy wrote:You flirted with the challenge. Each part of your song had a distinct arrangement, but maintained most of the same structure. In that regard, it was more like a song with a standard structure
j$ wrote:Bottom line is it doesn’t feel like a ‘three-part song’ to me but it is a bloody brilliant song.
Chumpy wrote:I felt like the song was not constrained by the challenge.
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Re: Nur Ein XI- Round Six

Postby glennny » Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:14 pm

How do you get that Niveous?

Vague language equals many interpretations. Precise language equals tighter interpretations.

I enjoy the playing with the vagueness of the language. For the spoken word challenge when Balance Lost spoke just one word. Clearly I enjoyed making a song about an electrical current event for the current event challenge. When Caravan Ray had the sounds of monkeys for the relative challenge.

If you want restrictions in place you should state them.

Why not say "Through Composed"? when clearly with hindsight that's what the judges wanted. There's 5 people in our band, we discussed what the challenge meant. We agreed that we were meeting the challenge. I personally considered pushing for a through composed composition, so I went back and read the challenge, it still said "Three part song in less than 3 minutes". It seemed akin to the 222 challenge. So having a verse chorus and bridge would be hitting the minimum 3 parts.
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Re: Nur Ein XI- Round Six

Postby Niveous » Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:20 pm

What I get is that there is an argument happening because the language was too vague. But you're saying that you like the vague language.

Can't have it both ways.

So, how do we remedy this? Or is this a moot argument?
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Re: Nur Ein XI- Round Six

Postby glennny » Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:52 pm

For now, too bad. Not going to change what is done.


Nobody's asking for a change in the decision.

I'm just saying I've participated in 10 of the 11 Nur Eins, 9 as a contestant and once as a judge. From my perspective the song always came before the challenge. The challenge had to be met by some interpretation, but the judges always seemed to favor a better song that just met the challenge over a weaker song that nailed the challenge.

It's nice to see the solidarity among the judges, but it's frustrating that you all seem to have meant one thing, but then posted the challenge in vague language that could be interpreted many ways. Then the songs were judged against what you meant, not what you said.

In any case, I don't mean for the judges to feel unappreciated. I know it's a thankless task mostly. So thanks for the time and the effort!

So here's a taste of you own medicine:

1- j$- I may not like your decisions, but at least you explain where you are coming from. Almost always first to post reviews and usually self aware throughout the reviews. You just edged out Nick for the top spot.

2- Nick Soma- Your method of scoring and judging is so Austrian of you. I appreciate understanding the weight of each aspect of the song writing process from your point of view. Didn't it drive you crazy not to compete? I liked judging, but I hated not competing. You did an excellent job.

3- Inevitable Naked Philosophy Guy- You're the nicest guy of all the judges I've met (I haven't met Nick in person). It's too bad there was so much life that got in the way for you this year, I think you would have placed higher given more time. you did well with what you had.

4- Chumpy- For a guy who gives a lot of grief about not reviewing, I was surprised not to see more reviews from you. I was also very disappointed you were a judge this year. I think Jerkatorium has been doing lots of great stuff in the regular fight, and winning a lot. I was looking forward to hearing them in the competition. Also, to think BSS didn't meet the last challenge is just intellectually dishonest ;)

5- Niveous- When are you going to compete man? I'm sure you have lots of life going on. You're actually one of my favorite contributors to facebook. It's all about the lack of reviews. When they arrive they are insighful, but they're just so late. Then for some reason you don't like to explain yourself. Why didn't you like the Cavedweller song "Watertight"? I'm still wondering. You should be thanked for all the Nur Ein efforts, and I thank you, but I'm afraid you're eliminated.

So it was a close one j$ and Nick at the top.

I'm sorry Chumpy and Niveous are eliminated, they will have to compete next year in Nur Ein XII

(all in good fun gents, I love you all!)
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Re: Nur Ein XI- Round Six

Postby Lunkhead » Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:58 pm

All I wanted to point out was that I think there has been a lot of talk from judges over the years about how they value song quality over challenge fulfillment. When three judges say a song is their favorite but no judges rank it top and it gets eliminated that to me puts the lie to all that talk about song quality over challenge fulfillment. That's the thing that is bugging me. Let's not kid ourselves about it at least. This is not a tournament where the winner is the one who writes "the best" songs. The challenge and the fact that it's intent is not clear or consistent even among and judges, and that the wording doesn't match any judge's intent necessarily, and that each judge ranks the songs by completely their own method, and that the results are just a mashup of five or more totally isolated rankings, adds in a bit of a random chance element to the whole thing. I'm OK with that being the nature of it as long as people aren't going around pretending that there's some kind of inherent "fairness" or "objectivity" or that "the best songs" win or whatever.
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Re: Nur Ein XI- Round Six

Postby glennny » Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:01 pm

What I get is that there is an argument happening because the language was too vague. But you're saying that you like the vague language.

Can't have it both ways.

So, how do we remedy this? Or is this a moot argument?


Possible remedies:

1-A lengthy explanation page. get the lawyers out. If the judges want something specific they should explain it.

2-With vague challenges, accept vague interpretations.

This is just a case where the judges wanted us to write a song based on what they meant, not what they said. Then they judged on what they meant, not yielding to interpretations based on what they said.

The best way to appreciate Nur Ein I've found is to try and come up with a better contest. I've done that and I keep coming back to Nur Ein. Nur Ein is not without flaws, but it's a great game, and I'll keep coming back.
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Re: Nur Ein XI- Round Six

Postby Lunkhead » Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:05 pm

glennny wrote:This is just a case where the judges wanted us to write a song based on what they meant, not what they said. Then they judged on what they meant, not yielding to interpretations based on what they said.

The best way to appreciate Nur Ein I've found is to try and come up with a better contest. I've done that and I keep coming back to Nur Ein. Nur Ein is not without flaws, but it's a great game, and I'll keep coming back.


Yes.

And agreed.

glennny is saying things more concisely and politely and positively here than I am, thanks glennny.
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Re: Nur Ein XI- Round Six

Postby grumpymike » Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:24 pm

Yeesh I don't really want to get involved since it's not very graceful, but I love you, Glen!

Glennny and Sam, I understand your frustration- we've all been there! This is not a perfect contest with perfect rules, and it's volunteer run, and it's just crazy and random and fun to make songs with everyone!

The way I interpret the results is that the judges asked for a three piece song; yes, everyone did make a three piece song!! However, the extent to which the challenge was embraced varied significantly, and the more difficult interpretations were apparently selected! Changing instruments, tempo, mood, lyrics, all these things add up to the challenge! This is actually consistent with your Villanelle example! In that case, the songs that won were the ones that interpreted it to mean longer and more complex entries! I can also name many rounds in previous years where taking a difficult interpretation did not pay off - and in those cases, that was because the songs were just generally unliked!
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Re: Nur Ein XI- Round Six

Postby Lunkhead » Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:58 pm

No offense, but, I think you are imagining a level of consistency that simply does not exist. It's not the facts that bug me so much as all the talk, the generalizations about Nur Ein that do not line up with the facts, particularly about the judging.

Anyway, I'll stop my complaining now. I've made 9 attempts at winning this thing and come within spitting distance 7 times and the competitive side of me is feeling pretty jaded about it at this point though. At least in this case bgm and Mike wrote songs I really enjoyed, and I look forward to a final round where I hope to have to make a tough choice between two songs I enjoy a lot.

Also, I have to admit, as a voter in a previous final round I too wound up using the challenge as a metric by which to decide my vote. I sure got a lot of crap for that, because my own opinion of one of the finalist's "A game" was very very different from his own opinion of his "A game". That was funny. :)
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Re: Nur Ein XI- Round Six

Postby j$ » Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:56 pm

[EDIT: Sorry, this follows a post by Lunkhead - but it's not directly aimed at him - it's meant as an overall comment on the results discussion. That first 'you' is a general one].

Had you wanted clarification, you could have asked for it, as members of BSS have often done throughout the discussion threads for this and previous Nur Eins. You didn't; so in all honesty I find it hard to feel much sympathy.

Just to clarify one further thing, Lunkhead has alluded inaccurately to something I have repeatedly said - the actual quotation is "No-one, to my knowledge, has been eliminated for failing to meet the challenge' (my emphasis) - as I said in my reviews this round, no-one failed the challenge. Yes,for me it's song first, challenge second - but that is not the same as song and nothing else counts, within Nur Ein's set-up. I based my ranking (judge 1 this time out, off the top of my head) as I always do on a combination of song quality plus how I feel the challenge was positively met.

Hope that helps clarify my position at least.

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Re: Nur Ein XI- Round Six

Postby glennny » Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:13 pm

You're right, we could have asked for clarification on the boards. We didn't think we needed it. We read the challenge and came up with what we thought was a valid interpretation of the challenge. It's a game of song writing and playing to the audience etc. We miscalculated and lost. You'd think we'd be experts by now of challenge to song ratios etc. but we were off the mark.

I'm looking forward to the Nick reviews where the challenge is only 10% of the score. ;)

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Re: Nur Ein XI- Round Six

Postby Caravan Ray » Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:39 pm

glennny wrote:Caravan Ray had the sounds of monkeys for the relative challenge..

They were apes. Not monkeys. Monkeys would have made no sense. They are not part of the Hominidae family, merely part of the wider Order of primates.
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Re: Nur Ein XI- Round Six

Postby noma » Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:07 am

I was the one who suggested the three part challenge. I was thinking of a mini-suite kind of thing, which we should probably have clarified. When I said it's OK for me if your song has 5 or more parts, I was talking about a 5-part suite, not a verse/pre-chorus/chorus/bridge/outro or whatever song. (Grumpy's song had more than three parts and most judges liked it - yes, I said it was merely my opinion that more than three parts were OK, but I don't think BSS's song having 5 parts was the reason for it not making the top spot.)

I named TMBG's "With the Dark" as an example, and I stand by that. I named the same song as an example for a good execution of the challenge (minus 17 seconds) over at the judges' forum when we decided to go for the challenge.
(By the way, I had originally proposed another challenge which would have been really, and I mean really tough.)
For another example - and that one is under 3:00! - check out the Beatles classic "Happiness Is a Warm Gun": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zei3xnivwFk

Note that Happiness has more than three parts:

1. "She's not a girl who misses much..."
2. Guitar solo and "I need a fix..."
3. "Mother Superior, jump the gun..."
4. "Happiness is a warm gun..."

If the Beatles had competed in this round with Happiness Is a Warm Gun, I don't think the other judges would have criticized them much for having an additional part - because it fits the spirit of the challenge, the way it was intended. It didn't come across like that because of a problem in communication. Yes, we could have been more exact. I thought it was obvious, but it wasn't obvious, obviously. Duh.
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Re: Nur Ein XI- Round Six

Postby noma » Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:11 am

Lunkhead wrote:Also, I have to admit, as a voter in a previous final round I too wound up using the challenge as a metric by which to decide my vote. I sure got a lot of crap for that, because my own opinion of one of the finalist's "A game" was very very different from his own opinion of his "A game". That was funny. :)


I don't know if you are referring to my winning entry of last year (which, I think, you called "the triumph of the mediocre" or something :lol: ); but no matter which one you are talking about, I can remember people being surprised at my laid back "Dogs of War". I had my reasons. I thought it would have been too, I dunno, too safe, too boring to just do another power pop tune, especially with the epic title. It wasn't what most people consider my "A game", but it paid off in the end.
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Re: Nur Ein XI- Round Six

Postby noma » Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:16 am

glennny wrote:I'm looking forward to the Nick reviews where the challenge is only 10% of the score. ;)

Be aware that in my reviews, the execution of the challenge has sometimes influenced other categories as well (composition for the psychedelic one, lyrics for the origin story, performance and production for the obvious flaw, etc.), and sometimes had an influence on the "creativity bonus", too. (Mostly, you are correct though; I usually don't ditch a good song because of the challenge. I can assure you that if Grumpy's and bgm's songs had sucked, BSS would have made my top spot. ;))

glennny wrote:2- Nick Soma- Your method of scoring and judging is so Austrian of you. I appreciate understanding the weight of each aspect of the song writing process from your point of view. Didn't it drive you crazy not to compete? I liked judging, but I hated not competing. You did an excellent job.

Oh yes, I would have loved to compete. Thinking up challenges was fun though, and it was interesting to see the whole Ein "from the other side", so to say. But yeah, I'm really looking forward to competing again next year. Thanks for your kind words!
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Re: Nur Ein XI- Round Six

Postby glennny » Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:36 am

Nick,

None of the judges are addressing my question (one of many), why not say "Through Composed"? That's what song writers (which we all are) call that kind of a composition. That's clearly what you guys wanted. That's what you guys would have received from BSS has you said "Through Composed". I considered Through composed, but looking at the challenge it decidedly did not say "Through Composed", it said "3 part song in under 3 minutes".

Was it you didn't want to use the same language as the "Spider to the Fly" challenge?

We can write any kind of song you guys want (inset joke, something like "...except a good song"), we just need to understand what you're asking for.

cheers!

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Re: Nur Ein XI- Round Six

Postby glennny » Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:40 am

"suite" would have been a perfect word also.
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Re: Nur Ein XI- Round Six

Postby noma » Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:43 am

Well, honestly I don't know. We should have gone with "suite", that was the way I suggested it at the judges' forum.
Or maybe we should have gone with that other challenge. You might have liked it, but I think you would have been the only one. :D
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Re: Nur Ein XI- Round Six

Postby glennny » Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:50 am

What's the really tough challenge?
I have a "Change is Coming" still to write.
I challenge you Nick, j$, Naked, Chumpy, Niveous to the really tough Nick challenge for the "Change is Coming" title.
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Re: Nur Ein XI- Round Six

Postby noma » Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:21 am

glennny wrote:What's the really tough challenge?
I have a "Change is Coming" still to write.
I challenge you Nick, j$, Naked, Chumpy, Niveous to the really tough Nick challenge for the "Change is Coming" title.


We ditched that one mainly because it would have been tough to judge as well, since the challenge was heavy on the music theory side. I figured the judges wouldn't want to use that one again next year, so I'll tell you: "Write a song in a mode that is not Ionian or Aeolian", i.e. not major or minor. As I know you're into prog as well as twelve-tone technique and the like, I think you'd have liked it, am I right? :)

glennny wrote:I challenge you Nick, j$, Naked, Chumpy, Niveous to the really tough Nick challenge for the "Change is Coming" title.

I'll gladly accept that challenge. (It was my idea, after all.)
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Re: Nur Ein XI- Round Six

Postby glennny » Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:33 am

Soft ball.
I love Lydian, which would be my first instinct. Mixolydian is all over the place too.
I've done a FAWM song in Phrygian ("Fireflies" Niveous wrote lyrics for that).

So the glaring absent modes are Locrian and Dorian.

What do you want to hear? I'm leaning towards Locrian, it's a bit weirder sounding to me, therefore fun.

EDIT: I guess YYZ is in Locrian, that song is 2nd nature to me. What do you think? Dorian? You name the mode, I'll do it.
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