Nur Ein III Round One "Sleepwalking"

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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by adamadamant »

Jefff wrote:
adamadamant wrote:Skin. Teeth. Phew!
It would've been an unforgivable crime for the judges to have eliminated you for that excellent song, sir.
Thanks! Without wanting to sound weird, it means a lot, I'm a big fan of your music, even bought one of your albums. :)



Ok so some reviews too:

Lord of Oats - Ok, it does sound like an intentional bowout. It has merit in places (the drums are often nice, the layering works occasionally) but on the whole pretty awful and hard to listen to.

Glenn and Rachael - Lovely vocals and the harmonies with them are brill. The guitar gets a bit lonely, but it works.

Jim Tyrrell - Cool upbeat number, the chord progression is a little dull and it could be longer. I like the bass the whole thing is nice and cheery.

Starfinger - Nice synths, vocals are a bit weak, they don't ruin it but I feel like you could have avoided the falsettos and saved some face. Ok but nothing special.

Frankie Big Face - I loved this. I think you said before it was a good idea with poor exececution, whilst, yeah, it could have been better produced, it's still fantastic. Engrossing atmosphere and interesting structure make it a real stand-out track.

Tex Beaumont & The Dirty Hearts - Cool wooping synth, there's a nice swooping feeling through the whole song in fact. The vocals could be a bit crisper, they were hard to make out, but I like the echoey 'ahs' and 'nahs'.

Octothorpe - Not sure how I feel about the alarm clock noise, it's a brave and interesting touch, but they are essentially quite irritating sounds. The vocals are pretty cool, interesting delivery. The whole song is fun and interesting but the production could be better.

Cock - This is cool, it has a thick and deep sound. I prefer the verses to the chorus(?) bits, the simplicity and repetitiveness works. Good vocals too and nice touch with the cello/violin/whatever. Perhaps a bit short, it could have more variety.

Reïst - I started off with this thinking i wouldn't like it, but it builds and evolves really nicely and by the end I was really enjoying it. Not sure about the 'and walking' lyric being repeated, the 'away' should come sooner maybe. Good though.

Add - Another great song. Nice piano, simple but sounds really good and all the other instruments work really well to make it interesting but stay uncluttered.

The John Benjamin Band - A rightful winner, great atmosphere, rhythm, lyrics and everything really.

MC Eric B - I'm curious, did you play the guitar part, I remember you said a while ago that you sampled stuff from your keyboard. Anyway playing (or at least writing) the parts is important for me. The tune is a little dull, more chord changes would be nice. The drums at the end sound a bit out of place/time too. Not terrible but definite room for improvement.

Ken Mahru - Great drums, not such a fan of the guitar, it's a bit muddy (a bit loud too perhaps). The chorus is really cool, it's pop and uplifting and I like it. Good stuff, though there were better this week.

Sausage Boy - Interesting stuff but the production is just too poor, it ruins the song. Vocal delivery is also pretty suspicious (your voice is fine but the timing and melody is strange). 'I wish I had more time', I guess you were pushed because I'm sure you've done better in the past.

Paco del Stinko - The guitar, little-drummer-boy and plinky keyboard are really nice. I think I might have prefered it without the bass and the electric guitar at the end. and the vocals are a bit dull, I think they follow the other instruments too closely, though it does create quite a sleepy effect. Overall: thumbs up.

King Arthur - Hmm, the second fade out intro, I don't know if that was supposed to be for the challenge but it's a but odd. Once it gets going it's lovely, the chorus is especially cheery. Lots of bounce in this song from the bass and I like that. Interesting lyrics with good delivery on them too. One of my favourites this week.

Sven - Nice, I found it a bit heavy for my taste, too much reverb I think, but it's a well written and well performed song. Not really my thing, but well done.

Billy's Little Trip - Great guitar noises. A rocking number, lots of interesting bits going on, I especially liked: 'huh!', the guitar arpeggioing through the chorus into the verse, 'turnstyle', guitar riffs throughout.

Ross Durand - I like the harmonies the vocals have with the guitar in the chorus, felt it could have been supported with another instrument though. Drums are occasionally a bit wobbly, but hardly noticeable and mostly very good. Overall nice structure and nice use of all the different instruments, nothing feels wasted.

Bryan Kandel - Fantastic vocals throughout (though they clip a bit) and I like the guitar in the intro. From 2.03 to 3.30 it sounds quite repetitive because the organ keeps going to the two high chords, the bridge isn't different enough from the choruses. Good song though.

The Worldly Self Assurance - Ok gripe first, I'm not a fan of the main singer. He has got a good voice but he a. isn't as strong a singer as some of the backing vocalists, b. reminds me too much of the awful punk and ska bands I used to go see when I was younger. Apart from that the rest of the track is top drawer, I loved it. Gentle and slightly moving guitar, great backing vocals, classy percussion, good everything really. Too short if anything as well, I could have easily listened to another 2 or 3 minutes.

Faves were BLT, King Arthur, Add, The JBB, Frankie Big Face, and The WSA, but most of the tracks were extremely listenable, though I felt last week had a better haul, it's been another great Nur Ein selection.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by MC Eric B »

adamadamant - No, I didn't play the guitar. The guitar is from my keyboard. The drums at the end were to help with the crescendo. But, I bought an electric guitar this week, so hopefully I will use that in future Songfight songs.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by Billy's Little Trip »

Lunkhead wrote: BLT - Your intro seems a bit long to me, too. I like the riffing. The instrumentation is a little weird to me. It sounds like plugged in acoustic guitar? Plugged in (as in, not mic'ed) acoustic always sounds terrible to me.
You always seem to have a good ear. Yes, the acoustic is running straight through my POD. Honestly, I don't think I would have noticed that if I heard it on someone else's song. I've also noticed in the past that you don't care for long intros. For some reason I always feel that I need to set the mood and I tend to run too long on my intro. Something I'm working on. Like you said, I could have put more in the bridge crescendo, and cut out some slag in the beginning.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by Lunkhead »

Yeah, sorry, I've got a real bug up my ass about the plugged-in acoustic thing. I started out recording my acoustic guitar that way for my first couple of Song Fight! entries, because it seemed simpler and easier than using a mic. Then some folks here told me my acoustic guitar sounded like total crap and that I should mic it. I asked for recommendations and did some Googling, and it turned out it wasn't very hard for me to use a mic and it sounded way better to me, so I stuck with it. Now that I have been converted I am carrying on the crusade. ;)

As for song length, I'm not necessarily opposed to long intros or long songs universally, but for me when I'm listening to a Song Fight! or Nur Ein round I'm usually listening to >20 songs, and every second of the song should count. If I were listening to, say, 10-15 songs, I'd probably enjoy things being drawn out more, especially if doing so helped the person/band develop the song. I just think it gets harder to keep your song good and engrossing the more you stray from the 2:42-4:00 sweet spot.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by erik »

2:42!
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by Billy's Little Trip »

erik wrote:2:42!
:shock: the other sign of the devil!
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by Billy's Little Trip »

Lunkhead wrote:Yeah, sorry, I've got a real bug up my ass about the plugged-in acoustic thing. I started out recording my acoustic guitar that way for my first couple of Song Fight! entries, because it seemed simpler and easier than using a mic. Then some folks here told me my acoustic guitar sounded like total crap and that I should mic it. I asked for recommendations and did some Googling, and it turned out it wasn't very hard for me to use a mic and it sounded way better to me, so I stuck with it. Now that I have been converted I am carrying on the crusade. ;)

As for song length, I'm not necessarily opposed to long intros or long songs universally, but for me when I'm listening to a Song Fight! or Nur Ein round I'm usually listening to >20 songs, and every second of the song should count. If I were listening to, say, 10-15 songs, I'd probably enjoy things being drawn out more, especially if doing so helped the person/band develop the song. I just think it gets harder to keep your song good and engrossing the more you stray from the 2:42-4:00 sweet spot.
I do record acoustic with mic's sometimes if it's a big part of the song, but when I'm writing a song, I'll just plug in to start laying down tracks, because I always write with my acoustic. Quite often I'll pull the acoustic out in the end. But yeah, mic'd acoustic is much fatter and richer, no doubt.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by Märk »

Thanks for the reviews, Adam!(adamant) and Lunkhead. Food for thought....
* this is not a disclaimer
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by frankie big face »

Yes, thanks to Sam, Adam! and everyone else who took the time to comment on songs.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by Reist »

Ditto to what frankie said.

I'm not sure what to do about my vox mix, but I'll try to do something different with it next week.

ps - I never noticed that the 'sleepwalking ... and walking ... and walking away' line was bad until all the reviewers noticed it. :roll: I guess I hear/visualize it differently than everyone - but if I need to make my lyrics and vox more articulate, that's definitely solid advice. See you guys next round!
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by bck15 »

adamadamant wrote: Bryan Kandel - Fantastic vocals throughout (though they clip a bit)
Yeah, I was a bit perplexed. I recorded the vocals a few times to try to eliminate the clipping, but it was still there. I'm pretty sure the audio wasn't coming in too loud.

Thanks to all who posted reviews. They are helpful. Sometimes I think the judges work harder than the contestants.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by Adam! »

Jefff wrote:Adam - well you're entitled to your opinion
But not if it's totally off-base! After reading your comments I went back and listened and there it was: a minute-long, fairly subtle (~3db) crescendo. Before, I had found the "little" crescendo nested inside the big one, and basically couldn't see the forest for the trees. I can see now that you took the challenge to heart, and I feel pretty bad about harping you about it; in meager self-defense, I know I was not the only judge who missed it. Apparently we cannot handle subtlety. Knowing what I do now, I would have ranked you two spots higher, but I would also have ranked 15-16 higher as well (now that I 'get' his lyrics), so overall you would have gone up one point.
Jefff wrote:I'll admit that it didn't turn out as buildy as I first envisioned it
Hmmm... do you use 2-buss (aka "mastering") compression? I think some people kind of flattened out their crescendos with gain reduction. Not sure if that was a factor here.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by Adam! »

frankie big face wrote:Hence, in keeping with the literal Italian translation, which is "growing."
Ok, that's probably where our disconnect is happening. For me (and I fully admit I may be totally out to lunch here. Having no music training, I really only have things like wikipedia to go on. And you know how wikipedia is :roll: ) an absolutely essential part of crescendo is the "gradual" element. Your song has an impressive and exciting dynamic range, but I would describe the changes as abrupt, or at least hurried.
frankie big face wrote:[Your] overemphasis on the challenge is lame.
I'm sorry you feel that way; you will likely be disappointed to hear that, with so many amazing musicians in this competition, when it comes time to rank the songs I will probably be relying on challenge and title usage more and more to serve as "tie-breakers". I'd also like to point out that, on your request, last week I outlined my judging criteria and illustrated it with examples. So, I hope nothing came as a surprise.
Adam! wrote:
frankie big face wrote:Given the uneven results, how the hell does anyone know what the judges are listening for? It's not like you have any special qualifications to judge beyond saying "I'll do it" on a message board. None of you has made a list of your criteria or whatever.
As requested, here is a list of my criteria.
...
If you [do not honour the title or challenge] you will go straight to the bottom of my list. I'll illustrate: An embarrassing skirmish-quality song that was clearly written for the title and meets the challenge will trump an otherwise-perfect song that was not written for the title or does not meet the challenge. Additionally, a song that uses the challenge in a creative way will trump a song that uses it in a cursory, superficial or obvious way; same goes for the title.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by jb »

Adam! wrote: For me ... an absolutely essential part of crescendo is the "gradual" element.
Adam, I give the following dissertation with love and so that you will not be limited in your ability to describe music to other people. Also because I am an arrogant sonofabitch who likes to lecture.

My own use of crescendo in "Sleepwalking" was definitely not clever, consisting only of a little bit of musical craft to help drive to the final chorus. But had someone used a series of really short crescendos to form some kind of pattern in their song, your comments lead me to believe that you would not have given due credit for creative address of the challenge, and that would have been unfair. Luckily, from what I heard, nobody went that route and we dodged such an injustice. :)

I'm writing this mostly from my experience as a classical musician but also with a hefty dose of the classical education behind that experience. Text is imperfect, but I spent the afternoon dancing about architecture and feel like covering all the bases today. Har har, semi-obscure joke.

The "gradual" part of the definition of a crescendo simply means "not instant or sudden". So if you have three beats, the first soft, the second a little louder, the third louder still, that qualifies as a crescendo and in the printed notation you will see the crescendo marking which looks like an extended angle bracket that lasts from the softest note to the loudest note. Often the starting dynamic will be indicated at the narrow end and the final dynamic at the "open" end.

That's all it takes to make a crescendo even if the three beats together only last a second. And of course those three beats might be contained within one note that starts soft and gets louder. The key being "not instant or sudden"-- so you probably would never be able to fit a crescendo into an eighth note at 4/4 120bpm and have any rational person consider it a crescendo.

If you have three more beats, the second louder than the first and the third as loud as the second, you simply have a dynamic change which is indicated by a letter abbreviation such as "f" or "ff".

If you have three more beats, the second louder than the first and the third softer than the second, you have an accent, usually indicated by a short angle bracket over the loud note. Sometimes the composer desires an especially forceful pounce on that beat, in which case it will be marked "sforzando" and indicated by "sfz" beneath the loud note. Sforzando usually goes right back down to the first beat's dynamic marking, although it can be a sustained loud note that you're pouncing on-- that's where some craft in notation comes in where the orchestrator/composer makes a decision as to how to notate the sheet music so that the musician will know what performance is desired.


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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by Ross »

I love Nur Ein!!!!
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by Adam! »

jb wrote:The "gradual" part of the definition of a crescendo simply means "not instant or sudden". So if you have three beats, the first soft, the second a little louder, the third louder still, that qualifies as a crescendo and in the printed notation you will see the crescendo marking which looks like an extended angle bracket that lasts from the softest note to the loudest note. Often the starting dynamic will be indicated at the narrow end and the final dynamic at the "open" end. That's all it takes to make a crescendo even if the three beats together only last a second.
Oh weird. Wikepedia calls these short volume increases "hairpins", and makes a distinction between them and crescendos. Specifically: "[Hairpins] tend to be used for dynamic changes over a relatively short space of time, while cresc., decresc. and dim. are generally used for dynamic changes over a longer period." But I trust you over wikipedia any day (hell, I'd trust my senile Aunt before I'd trust an unprotected wikipedia article), so thank you for the dancing lesson.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by Ross »

Adam! wrote:
jb wrote:The "gradual" part of the definition of a crescendo simply means "not instant or sudden". So if you have three beats, the first soft, the second a little louder, the third louder still, that qualifies as a crescendo and in the printed notation you will see the crescendo marking which looks like an extended angle bracket that lasts from the softest note to the loudest note. Often the starting dynamic will be indicated at the narrow end and the final dynamic at the "open" end. That's all it takes to make a crescendo even if the three beats together only last a second.
Oh weird. Wikepedia calls these short volume increases "hairpins", and makes a distinction between them and crescendos. Specifically: "[Hairpins] tend to be used for dynamic changes over a relatively short space of time, while cresc., decresc. and dim. are generally used for dynamic changes over a longer period." But I trust you over wikipedia any day (hell, I'd trust my senile Aunt before I'd trust an unprotected wikipedia article), so thank you for the dancing lesson.
Any body gonna check Grove? (dictionary of music, that is)? I don't have access to a copy. Maybe some of you college students do. :-)
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by Spud »

The wikipedia entry is speaking to the notation style of long vs. short crescendos. If it is short, you can notate it with a hairpin, that's that extended angle bracket jb was talking about. If it is going to go for several bars or more, in particular past the end of the staff, it will be notated cresc. intead, because a really long extended angle bracket would be cumbersome. Often, you will see a new dynamic marking (such as ff) at the end of the desired long crescendo. Both, although notated differently, are crescendos. Dare I say, musically speaking, there is no such thing as a hairpin.

SPUD

<edit> I looked up the wikipedia entry, and found the phrase "Signs sometimes referred to as 'hairpins' are also used to stand for these words", referring to crescendo and decrescendo. That's pretty clear that they are the same thing. Don't confuse the symbol with the concept.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by Ross »

For some reason this totally reminds me of a bit from a record my Dad had of one of the Hofnung Music Festivals from the 1950s, it was like a sketch spoof of 4'33''. "In the third measure there is a large crescendo in the silence."

Hilarious.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by frankie big face »

Adam! wrote:
frankie big face wrote:[Your] overemphasis on the challenge is lame.
I'm sorry you feel that way; you will likely be disappointed to hear that, with so many amazing musicians in this competition, when it comes time to rank the songs I will probably be relying on challenge and title usage more and more to serve as "tie-breakers". I'd also like to point out that, on your request, last week I outlined my judging criteria and illustrated it with examples. So, I hope nothing came as a surprise.
Well, to be clear, I didn't request your criteria. I made a comment that there was no way to know what judges were looking for. It didn't really have anything to do with you personally and I wouldn't exactly view it as a "request." I also did not say "your" overemphasis, even though the post was in reply to one of your posts. Putting brackets around a completely different word doesn't mean I actually implied it; it just means you think I did, but I didn't. Exactly.

Anyway, my issue with this is not how you judge or why you judged my song the way you did. And in retrospect, "overemphasis" was probably the wrong word. "Scrutiny" is more like it. If you're looking up "crescendo" in Wikipedia because you really don't know what a crescendo is, you're probably not in the best position to be telling someone how terrible their crescendo is. If the judges want a "gradual increase in volume over the course of long period of time a là A Day in the Life" (which you mention as your model), then they should say that. If they want a "crescendo," they should be prepared for all possible types of crescendi, including short ones like I used at 4:02 and not say things like "The apparent neglect of the challenge cost you pretty heavily." And again, this is the internet and it probably seems like I'm upset, but I'm not and I appreciate the comments you wrote and the difficulty of the job you have to do judging this competition.

And for both judges, there are no synths in my song. No "faux strings" and no "chorusy synths." Everything that sounds like an orchestra came from the Mahler Symphony. Just a point of clarification.
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by Caravan Ray »

Adam! wrote:
dictionary.com wrote:cres·cen·do (krə-shĕn'dō) a gradual, steady increase in loudness or force.
caravan ray additionally wrote:but with no obvious increase in interest
I think this thread has reached a crescendo (krə-shĕn'dō)
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Re: Nur Ein III- Round One

Post by jimtyrrell »

LOUD NOISES!!!

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