Nur Ein III Round One "Sleepwalking"

[Ross]

In the past - I think it has been like, I need a cool bass part on this one song - it's been sort of okay - I used a guest guitarist for a song last year on one song, but to now add a permanent drummer would be a different sort of thing, I think - but I am not a judge or rule maker, that's just been my impression from past Eins.

[Spud]

I have always taken the position that it's about the songwriting, not the drumming. I kind of have to.

SPUD

[Ross]

I think I'm making decent progress - I'm in sort of hurry up mode since I won't really have Friday to work on this. For me an unintentional challenge will be my mix. I bit off a bit - but I'll crunch it through.

Nur Ein!

[sausage boy]

When this round is over I have to admit I'd be morbidly curious to hear sausage boy cover a Minty Handy demo.

If said demo happens to come my way, I'll certainly give it a good mauling.

I found my inspiration, by the way. I stayed up late and wrote all the lyrics and arranged and recorded the instruments in a half awake stupor. Mess with the vocals a little tomorrow, and then submit it.

I am kind of hoping to continue the time honoured Nur Ein tradition of being knocked out with my second song. I'll just feel so vindicated.

[frankie big face]

...it's about the songwriting, not the drumming.

Yeah, too bad the songs aren't judged that way.

Production and arrangement matter as much to the judges as songwriting, so why not use as many resources as you have available to you? I used live drums twice last year and I used live horns in the final round. I don't play any of that stuff. That doesn't mean I didn't write and arrange and record the songs. I don't see anything wrong with dressing the song up as you see fit. If this is indeed a songwriting competition, then it shouldn't matter who plays what. But performance and production weigh heavily in the judges' rankings and ratings, so unless we're going to level the playing field (like "every song can have only your voice and one accompanying instrument"), I see no reason not to use as many guest musicians as you can find.

[Spud]

Oh, I use all the resources available all right. I just don't have that many resources.

[Billy's Little Trip]

I hate it when I put together a song the way I really like it arranged, but it's over 4:00 long. In fact, this one is 4:47. Now for the painful part of cutting it down.

[ujnhunter]

guess i should start on this tonight eh?

[king_arthur]

Added the last couple sweetening tracks this morning and I think mine is ready to mix, and I have a bunch of time tomorrow to work on that. Very pleased with how it's coming out. The "crescendos" don't call a lot of attention to themselves, but they are there. Feeling good about this one...

Charles (KA)

[Rabid Garfunkel]

I forget, are we allowed to use 'guest' musicians? I am not a drummer, and I would really rather not use fake drums on my song(s).

The judges are hashing this issue out.

[erik]

1) How is anyone going to know if you use a guest musician?
2) Wasn't one of the requirements for one of the past Nur Eins to have female vocals? Isn't that using a guest musician?

[EmbersOfAutumn]

I think I'm about to get my KO punch this round--I started early on Sunday, and recorded a trial run, but then did nothing up until now, and I won't have a chance to do any more writing or recording until tomorrow morning. Get ready for more bottom of the barrel music from me.

[Lunkhead]

1) How is anyone going to know if you use a guest musician?
2) Wasn't one of the requirements for one of the past Nur Eins to have female vocals? Isn't that using a guest musician?

1) If your goal is to have somebody contribute really great drums/guitar/etc. it will probably wind up being pretty obvious. If someone else sings on your song, that will likely also be pretty obvious. Etc. If it's not really very obvious, then what's the point?

2) I thought the challenge was technically "opposite sex vocals", but around here that's basically the same as "female vocals". And last year one of the challenges was "guest vocalist". Those would require the use of a guest musician. However, I interpreted Mark's question to be about using guest musicians when it's not required to meet a challenge. I guess only Mark can clarify exactly what he meant there.

[jimtyrrell]

I forget, are we allowed to use 'guest' musicians? I am not a drummer, and I would really rather not use fake drums on my song(s).

The judges are hashing this issue out.

Really? I believe there's precedent that shows collaborations (outside of non-optional challenges) are not allowed. To quote Niveous from way back:

"This competition is called the NUR EIN. The title means Only One. Collaborations belie the idea of only one. Even though this is a reality tv gameshow concept, I would ask that the players of the NUR EIN refrain from collaboration."

The original debate about this idea can be found here. And if it's worth anything, I vote that nothing else about the rules changes during the competition.

[Hoblit]

1) How is anyone going to know if you use a guest musician?
2) Wasn't one of the requirements for one of the past Nur Eins to have female vocals? Isn't that using a guest musician?

1. If I showed up with superb drumming, you might get suspicious. IF I had a drum set I'd use it though.

2. What if we are secretly girls?

Don't pay any attention to me...I'm just typing words during lunch so I feel like I'm 'enjoying' my time away from work.

[Niveous]

There has been a lot of discussion on this. Basically the feeling is that there are times in which we often need session musicians to get the job done when we don't have the ability. That's a focus on the songwriting aspect and we feel that such a use of a guest is acceptable. But we want everyone to use their best discretion in using guests. If you find you're using a guest to save time, that's not a songwriting aspect. Or if you're simply bringing in a ringer, again not a focus on the songwriting aspect. Those are a focus on the game. Next year, we may have to be more formal about just who is allowed to participate on an entrant's song but for the moment, we will allow its usage but please do not abuse it.

As for what Jim T brought up, this ruling is in standing with the statements made in last year's Nur Ein when this question arose:

There's clearly a line somewhere; I think "getting your friend the bass player to do a bass solo" is fine and "getting your friend the bass player to write your song" is not. It's hard to say where exactly that line is, and I'm fine with letting individual entrants deal with that themselves. The people who are playing are generally honorable enough to play fair.

And now back to our regular scheduled music making, already in progress...

[Lunkhead]

Yeah, too bad the songs aren't judged that way.

Production and arrangement matter as much to the judges as songwriting
...
I see no reason not to use as many guest musicians as you can find.

Those are pretty contentious statements, and since you can't read the judges' minds, you've got to admit that you're just speculating about what/how they think. Sure, there are plenty of examples to support what you're saying, but there are also examples to the contrary. Just in recent history, Erik's song placed third in round zero, and it was just guy and guitar. There was no need for him to bring in guest musicians, because he'd written a good song.

I didn't run out and get someone to record drums for our songs last year, even though I was concerned about my crappy sounding fake drums. Instead I used Nur Ein as motivation to finally do something to improve the quality of my fake drums. (I bought Reason Drum Kits.) We also focused on songs that didn't miss anything by not having drums.

I don't think it's as simple as saying that guest musicians will or will not improve your chances. They're not going to help a crap song. that's for sure. Some judges will be swayed by high gloss production more than others, and some judges will be put off more than others when they hear that someone obviously had help recording their song. Like I said previously, people should be less worried about their drums, or about exploring the limits of what's allowed and what's not allowed, and more worried about writing the best song they can.

[jimtyrrell]

Niv: Thanks for clarifying. If that's how the rule stands, then I'm in favor of keeping it that way. Nur Ein!

[erik]

I dunno, for me rules and guidelines are good so that people can stop worrying about what's allowed and what's not allowed and focus on whatever the contest is supposed to be about. I find it interesting that to some people, it's omgtotallyobviouslyclear that the contest should be about doing everything yourself, and to others it's not clear.

Also, muchlove, onelove, and all the good stuff. I'm not out for judgeblood or anything, just talking.

[jimtyrrell]

To me, as it stands, it seems okay to use other musicians, as long as the judges think it's okay. It's a mistake for me to call that a hard-and-fast rule. More of a policy, maybe.

The important thing is that it solidifies my opinion on it, which is that it's not worth the risk. Except maybe in a case of dire need. I can work with that.

[Lunkhead]

I dunno, for me rules and guidelines are good so that people can stop worrying about what's allowed and what's not allowed and focus on whatever the contest is supposed to be about. I find it interesting that to some people, it's omgtotallyobviouslyclear that the contest should be about doing everything yourself, and to others it's not clear.

Also, muchlove, onelove, and all the good stuff. I'm not out for judgeblood or anything, just talking.

The judges can't have rules about every conceivable parameter of the contest, though. People are going to ask questions about things that the judges haven't thought of, or haven't made a firm decision about. Of course, it will seem obvious to the people asking the questions that there ought to be clear rules about these things, but it may not have occurred to the judges before. The judges are then stuck in a tough spot, because if they don't respond, people will complain, and if they do respond, not everyone is going to like the response, and some people are going to complain about the rules changing. I think it's just going to take time and more iterations of the contest for that situation to happen less, and there are going to be bumps in the road along the way.

[Caravan Ray]

judgeblood

There's a good band name.