Nur Ein VIII Round Four "Down to Under"

[frankie big face]

The metal is not the lyrics, it's the arrangement: I used some homemade metal noisemakers made from springs and steel roofing "L" brackets. The clang/scraping starts in the second verse and the twisted spring sounds are used in the second prechorus to build tension before the chorus. Then they're used throughout the rest of the song and are mixed at the surface during the last 10 seconds or so.

Ah. I have to admit I didn't really notice this stuff the first time around but that's primarily because the song is mixed well and I was too busy listening to the excellent hook.

And yes, I would agree that any creative approach to the word "metal" was pretty much swept aside in a
favor of a week-long dissertation on the genre of metal. While it wouldn't be fair to ask the judges to refrain from discussing the challenge in so much detail (this is, after all, a show of enthusiasm), they must understand that the constant discourse is going to influence the competitors.

And for the record (since this seemed to be confusing some people earlier in the thread), both xylophones and marimbas are made of wood. Glockenspiels and vibes are metal.

[frankie big face]

It seems like over the years the judges have been more likely to miss the point with less obvious challenge fulfillment, and ding contestants that they think didn't met the challenge, rather than ding contestants for obvious but merely adequate challenge fulfillment. Based on that behavior pattern, it would seem like the safest (though potentially least interesting) route to avoiding being penalized is to make sure the challenge fulfillment is at least obvious, if not also creative. But that's just if you're primary objective is to play the game, rank well, win, etc. versus making the songs you want to make.

There's a culture on boards such as these, where many folks assume everyone else is attuned to the same references as themselves. As a judge I will bring my references to the table and not attempt to get into other peoples' heads because that's just crazy. From someone who was born during the Kennedy years, Mountain is the godfather of metal. Beyond that there's a whole lot of shit, most of which I've never heard. But some of which is awesome, especially after the death of prog rock, when metal remained the most dynamic genre going, both instrumentally and lyrically. I guess my point is if someone "misses the point" then perhaps the music doesn't stand on its own.

Actually, I think you missed Lunkhead's point. You can't say Ben's song doesn't "stand on its own." (Well, I mean, you can but that would be exposing your poor taste in music.) But you can say you didn't think he fulfilled the challenge or fulfill it well because the metal instruments are subtle and you missed them. If the point is simply to fulfill he challenge, he did it because the challenge was so vague and could certainly be interpreted as he did. But if the point is to fulfill the challenge creatively (which I believe is your view based on past reviews) then you could argue he wasn't creative enough. And that's fine except it puts more emphasis on the challenge fulfillment than the songwriting which I personally think is wrong and why Lunkhead believes you have to be really obvious with the challenge fulfillment even if its to the detriment of the song.

[BenKrieger]

Do you feel this way about "To Tame a Land" by Iron Maiden (a song about Dune)?

With the exception of "Mariner," Iron Maiden's book report songs have always sucked pretty hard.

[glennny]

that's like saying all flute playing sucks in rock music with the exception of "Locomotive Breath".

"book report songs" LOL

I'm surprised you were eliminated Ben, historically song comes long before challenge. It seems when all things are equal otherwise the challenge comes into play. I heard the metallic noises in your song, and I got it. I wouldn't have dared do that, but i expected the judges to eat it up.

[Lunkhead]

... Lunkhead believes you have to be really obvious with the challenge fulfillment even if its to the detriment of the song.

I was more just playing devil's advocate, suggesting that getting too subtle or conceptual about fulfilling the challenge seems like it has more potential to be detrimental to your ranking than being more obvious about challenge fulfillment, based on my interpretation of past judges' behavior. Therefore if how you rank is important to you, you might want to consider being more obvious than subtle. Also, I don't personally equate being more obvious in challenge fulfillment with the challenge fulfillment being detrimental to the song.

[frankie big face]

... Lunkhead believes you have to be really obvious with the challenge fulfillment even if its to the detriment of the song.

I was more just playing devil's advocate, suggesting that getting too subtle or conceptual about fulfilling the challenge seems like it has more potential to be detrimental to your ranking than being more obvious about challenge fulfillment, based on my interpretation of past judges' behavior. Therefore if how you rank is important to you, you might want to consider being more obvious than subtle. Also, I don't personally equate being more obvious in challenge fulfillment with the challenge fulfillment being detrimental to the song.

Okay, well maye you should say what you mean and mean what you say so we wouldn't all keep missing your point. (kidding)

[Caravan Ray]

... Lunkhead believes you have to be really obvious with the challenge fulfillment even if its to the detriment of the song.

I was more just playing devil's advocate, suggesting that getting too subtle or conceptual about fulfilling the challenge seems like it has more potential to be detrimental to your ranking than being more obvious about challenge fulfillment, based on my interpretation of past judges' behavior. Therefore if how you rank is important to you, you might want to consider being more obvious than subtle. Also, I don't personally equate being more obvious in challenge fulfillment with the challenge fulfillment being detrimental to the song.

I am still disappointed with myself with taking the obvious "heavy metal" approach.

I really wanted to do a happy reggae song with steel drums (hence satisfying "metal"). But the title had me buggered. All I could think of was the "...down to under, the streetlight on the corner...", and I didn't want to do a happy reggae song about prostitution. So it became a song about a sad, pathetic metal-head and prostitution.

I was also disappointed everyone else (Ben excepted) was as weak as me and did metal.

Metal sucks. And this week proved it.

[j$]

... Lunkhead believes you have to be really obvious with the challenge fulfillment even if its to the detriment of the song.

I was more just playing devil's advocate, suggesting that getting too subtle or conceptual about fulfilling the challenge seems like it has more potential to be detrimental to your ranking than being more obvious about challenge fulfillment, based on my interpretation of past judges' behavior. Therefore if how you rank is important to you, you might want to consider being more obvious than subtle. Also, I don't personally equate being more obvious in challenge fulfillment with the challenge fulfillment being detrimental to the song.

You seem to think being subtle and being obscure are the same thing. A listener isn't going to get your point unless you make it clear. If one has to explain ones intentions outside the song for other people to understand it you have failed in the art of communication. Being clear and being obvious are not the same thing.

For the record, I rank positively when it comes to the challenge. Meeting it in a standard way is +/- 0 on my overall "score". Above that, bonus points for interesting / intriguing takes on the challenge. The only way to get a "negative" on that part of my scoring system is not to make it clear enough to my ears that the challenge has been met at all.

j$

[Eric Y.]

I'm surprised you were eliminated Ben, historically song comes long before challenge. It seems when all things are equal otherwise the challenge comes into play. I heard the metallic noises in your song, and I got it. I wouldn't have dared do that, but i expected the judges to eat it up.

I won't speak for anyone but myself, but when I am judging, the song absolutely comes first. The challenge is barely taken into account.

I have an elaborate system that involves Excel spreadsheets, and a letter-grading system (with several degrees of +/- in between each letter) for various aspects of the song, and an overall grade. There is an additional score for how well (or how creatively) the challenge is dealt with, but that really only would mean (in the overall score) the difference between, for example, a "B--" or a "C++".

I have always listened to all the songs twice before starting to keep track of scores, and usually at least three more times over the course of the two days, during which time the scores are continually fine-tuned. Then I sort them by overall score (manually, because Excel doesn't understand that a "B+-" is lower than a "B+" or that an "A-+" is higher than an "A-").

The foremost consideration in all of this -- and the overall aggregate grade is supposed to represent quantitatively -- "how much do I, personally, like this song?" ... which is why my rankings don't always line up with the other judges' and definitely don't often line up with the lay persons in these forums.

I am not directing this discussion at any particular person or song, just saying in general: challenge or no, I ranks them like I hears them.

[BenKrieger]

I was also disappointed everyone else (Ben excepted) was as weak as me and did metal.

Metal sucks. And this week proved it.

I got a HUGE kick out of Merisan's song, and it might be just the change of pace from their usual sound, which is fine but constant in their entries.

[Caravan Ray]

I was also disappointed everyone else (Ben excepted) was as weak as me and did metal.

Metal sucks. And this week proved it.

I got a HUGE kick out of Merisan's song, and it might be just the change of pace from their usual sound, which is fine but constant in their entries.

I think J$ hit the nail on the head:

Merisan – Who knew Merisan doing metal sounds almost exactly like the Hell Yeahs?

That is what I thought too. And the reason Merisan was the only song I liked this week.

[Caravan Ray]

I won't speak for anyone but myself, but when I am judging, the song absolutely comes first. The challenge is barely taken into account.

I have an elaborate system that involves Excel spreadsheets, and a letter-grading system (with several degrees of +/- in between each letter) for various aspects of the song, and an overall grade. There is an additional score for how well (or how creatively) the challenge is dealt with, but that really only would mean (in the overall score) the difference between, for example, a "B--" or a "C++".

I have always listened to all the songs twice before starting to keep track of scores, and usually at least three more times over the course of the two days, during which time the scores are continually fine-tuned. Then I sort them by overall score (manually, because Excel doesn't understand that a "B+-" is lower than a "B+" or that an "A-+" is higher than an "A-").

The foremost consideration in all of this -- and the overall aggregate grade is supposed to represent quantitatively -- "how much do I, personally, like this song?" ... which is why my rankings don't always line up with the other judges' and definitely don't often line up with the lay persons in these forums.

I am not directing this discussion at any particular person or song, just saying in general: challenge or no, I ranks them like I hears them.

Whoah!! If we ever have a Maths Nerd Nur Ein - I don't know if I will vote for you or Ross.

(which reminds me - I better update my "cumulative average proportion of scores spreadsheet")

[ValleyOfSteelstress]

Metal sucks. And this week proved it.

I really want to keep on liking you, because I think you're great. I could go into depth with this one but "Metal" ( maybe not as all of your narrow-minded view of what metal is) is a way of life for me and the Mister... we live our lives around it now days and we have never been happier or more content. Music itself is more then a thing that we love, it's almost like our third spouse and our marriage is better then most. Metal does not suck, it's the idea that metal is more about sticking your balls out there and demanding to be heard then the sudo-fake metal cheesiness you all were piling on this week. There are millions of bands in this genre besides the 20 that were referenced this week. In fact dude, you're "metal" a lot and don't even realize it because you never give a shit and I like that about you, you are original and really demand attention hence my comparison of you to one of my all time favorite bands "The Dammed" who couldn't technically be defined as punk or metal. I didn't hate your song, or any song, you guys are all just trying to do what you think metal is and some of you just took that too literal. There is so much music in the world defined as metal, and some of it is amazing. The point is, you could have all went off and been insane, but if the attitude was correct behind it then the song would have been metal in principle. I am explaining this all to you because in the last year my ideas on this genre of music have changed almost completely. I too have gone from being closed-minded and hating things that I didn't understand, to being an intense fan. Eric and I attend shows weekly, (31 shows this year so far) some are local bands where 5 people attend the show and some are touring acts that 200-10000 other people are in the room. I've heard things that were so intense in nature they brought me to tears, and I have heard things that I just didn't get, I have also heard things that have changed my life forever. It's all about respect, and I have an immense amount of respect for these artists some of which I am lucky to call my friends and I have the same amount for all of you.

[ValleyOfSteelstress]

Whoah!! If we ever have a Maths Nerd Nur Ein - I don't know if I will vote for you or Ross.

(which reminds me - I better update my "cumulative average proportion of scores spreadsheet")

He's in accountanting I am not sure if anyone knows this he does everything this way.

[Caravan Ray]

Whoah!! If we ever have a Maths Nerd Nur Ein - I don't know if I will vote for you or Ross.

(which reminds me - I better update my "cumulative average proportion of scores spreadsheet")

He's in accountanting I am not sure if anyone knows this he does everything this way.

Accounting.....Heavy metal. yes, it is all starting to make sense now.

Can he speak Elvish? Or Klingon?

[Eric Y.]

Well. That's an awful lot of shit-talking for some dude from Hobbit Land.

How does it feel to live in a place that's inspired so much hard rock and metal over the years?

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/ledzeppe ... bleon.html

http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/blindg ... earth.html

http://www.amonamarth.com/
http://www.truemetal.org/cirithungol/

[j$]

that's like saying all flute playing sucks in rock music with the exception of "Locomotive Breath".

What, so it's true, then?

[Eric Y.]

Hobbit Land

P.S.: Caravan Ray, just so my subtle jab isn't just mistaken for a stereotypically American ignorance of geography, the point of all of that was to imply that you are a kiwi, insultingly. I am fully aware that you're actually a banana-bender.

[BenKrieger]

Off the top of my head: Favorite 10 Metal Acts, with an effort to pick ones that don't sound much like each other:

King's X
Iron Maiden
Judas Priest
Inquisition
Metallica
Discordance Axis/Gridlink
Motorhead
Burzum
Napalm Death
Def Leppard

Runners up: Opeth, Akitsa, Nasum, Slayer, Sabbath

[Tubba Gutz]

Inquisition is the megajam. If you ever want to start a black metal songfight band you let me know.

[BenKrieger]

I got into black metal back when Dominick Fernow/Prurient used to run the Hospital Productions store in the East Village. He was often behind the counter and got me into everything, including that band. Such great hooks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIABsg7nGLk

The rip of this song leaves the guitar terribly indistinct, though. The riffs on this song are awesome.

[ValleyOfSteelstress]

Inquisition is the megajam. If you ever want to start a black metal songfight band you let me know.

Oh holy shit my brain just exploded that would be awesome. Burn some churches too