Nur Ein IX Round Five

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Re: Nur Ein! IX Round 5

Postby glennny » Tue May 27, 2014 3:12 pm

BTW What is the law for sampling?
At what point do you have to pay licensing fees?
Where's Roymond when you need him?
I have notions in my head that are decades old: You don't have to pay anything if it's less than 7 seconds, it's piblic domain if it's 25 years old.
I don't know if that's right, or if it ever was exactly right. Does anyone know the law?
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Re: Nur Ein! IX Round 5

Postby Lunkhead » Tue May 27, 2014 3:34 pm

Check out the "fair use" stuff here, that may be a start:

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/ ... 30165.html
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Re: Nur Ein! IX Round 5

Postby iVeg » Tue May 27, 2014 3:37 pm

@ furry - thanks for the pence. Or 1/10th of it.
@ boffo - no probs. I've missed every listening party so far this year. Bummer, because I really enjoyed them last year.
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Re: Nur Ein! IX Round 5

Postby glennny » Tue May 27, 2014 3:46 pm

can everyone promise to sell fewer than 1000 copies?
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Re: Nur Ein! IX Round 5

Postby Generic » Tue May 27, 2014 4:13 pm

glennny wrote:BTW What is the law for sampling?
At what point do you have to pay licensing fees?
Where's Roymond when you need him?
I have notions in my head that are decades old: You don't have to pay anything if it's less than 7 seconds, it's piblic domain if it's 25 years old.
I don't know if that's right, or if it ever was exactly right. Does anyone know the law?


I was concerned about this, myself. Here's the best of my knowledge:
You have to pay licensing fees if there's an active copyright on the piece you're sampling and/or the recording of it you're sampling.
Most if not all classical compositions from before 1900 are in the public domain, but recent recordings of performances of those pieces might not be, so if you're concerned about legality, check the liner notes. If you're using a recording that's still under copyright, you might still get away with it by claiming "Fair Use."
"Fair Use" is a nebulous term that can cover a lot of ground and there's a lot of debate about whether sampling for a pop song counts as "fair use."
In general, you have a decent chance of getting away with a "Fair Use" argument if your sample is...
1.) Educational
2.) Transformative
3.) Short (nowhere does it say "7 seconds," but that's as good a rule of thumb as any)
4.) Not profitable.

Even if your piece doesn't quite fit these criteria, I would argue that you stand a much better chance of "getting away with it" for a Classical composition than for a pop song. Major labels have sued the pants off of some artists (and some others) for very slight violations of copyright on their pop samples, but I have never heard of an instance of this being done for a sample of a performance of a classical piece. This might be because classical music isn't as much "big money," or because the age of the compositions makes the concept of "ownership" kind of thorny, or because the copyright holders are more lenient with their copyright claim in order to further dissemination of high culture... Or it might just be because there's never been a high-profile enough song that's used an unlicensed classical music sample.

Anyway, like Song Fight, Nur Ein takes no official or unofficial stance on copyright. Approach this challenge in whatever manner you wish, but note that you assume the burden of any risk you may take in the fulfillment of a challenge.
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Re: Nur Ein! IX Round 5

Postby Caravan Ray » Tue May 27, 2014 4:30 pm

I have always assumed that "fair use" will apply for songfight/nur ein because it is not-for-profit.

If I were to send a song to CD Baby to have it put on iTunes/spotify etc however - I wouldn't use samples. Eg - my "Watertight" had ape samples I randomly found for free on the internet. If I wanted to put that on iTunes - I would remove them and purchase a few sound bites to replace them with.


...which now makes me wonder about all the sampled sounds I use from Garageband/Logic. I assume I am allowed to use those as I want, since I purchased the programs?




edit...
To answer my own question:

The GarageBand software license agreement says:

"GarageBand Software. You may use the Apple and third party audio loop content (Audio Content), contained in or otherwise included with the Apple Software, on a royalty-free basis, to create your own original music compositions or audio projects. You may broadcast and/or distribute your own music compositions or audio projects that were created using the Audio Content, however, individual audio loops may not be commercially or otherwise distributed on a standalone basis, nor may they be repackaged in whole or in part as audio samples, sound effects or music beds."

So don't worry, you can make commercial music with GarageBand, you just can't distribute the loops as loops.

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2931
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Re: Nur Ein! IX Round 5

Postby BenKrieger » Tue May 27, 2014 4:43 pm

Write a song that you wouldn't want perform outside of the confines of this circle-jerk contest and you're GOLD.
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Re: Nur Ein! IX Round 5

Postby noma » Wed May 28, 2014 12:37 am

Whoa, now that's surprising. First I win round 5 and then I'm at the bottom end in round 6. :?
I wouldn't have guessed that based on the other contestants' reviews and I'm curious as to why I was rated that low. Looking forward to hearing the judges' comments on that.
Sad to see Paco go, he was one of my favorites this round, along with Ken. I loved the bass in Paco's track. :)
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Re: Nur Ein! IX Round 5

Postby Caravan Ray » Wed May 28, 2014 1:29 am

noma wrote:Whoa, now that's surprising. First I win round 5 and then I'm at the bottom end in round 6. :?
I wouldn't have guessed that based on the other contestants' reviews and I'm curious as to why I was rated that low. Looking forward to hearing the judges' comments on that.
Sad to see Paco go, he was one of my favorites this round, along with Ken. I loved the bass in Paco's track. :)

Thanks for playing Nick. You did some great songs.

Gotta admit - I am feeling uncomfortably unworthy in advancing
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Re: Nur Ein! IX Round 5

Postby noma » Wed May 28, 2014 2:56 am

Caravan Ray wrote:Thanks for playing Nick. You did some great songs.

Gotta admit - I am feeling uncomfortably unworthy in advancing


Thanks for your kind words! Here's hoping you'll win this year's Nur Ein and become a judge next year. ;)
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Re: Nur Ein! IX Round 5

Postby BenKrieger » Wed May 28, 2014 4:08 am

noma wrote:I'm curious as to why I was rated that low.


I can't even remember at this point what it was like being a judge, but I know there are often some heavy discussion regarding the challenge. I'm a judge who would have wanted to put you at the top of the list for the quality of the song, would have actually put you in the middle of the list because it wasn't the strongest execution of the challenge, and ultimately would have rated you lower once it was pointed out to me that hey--this is Nur Ein. The challenge is everything, especially if you make it this far in the competition. I'm thinking that the judges were really looking for examples where the double-time really throws the listener into the shift? The Tom Petty example is a good one: when it goes into double-time, you really know it, feel it, and it's so essential to the song that it's inconceivable to imagine it not being there.

The challenges are often stupid and ridiculous, but Nur Ein is where the stupid and ridiculous is taken seriously. :roll: :lol: :o :shock:
Last edited by BenKrieger on Wed May 28, 2014 4:11 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Nur Ein! IX Round 5

Postby Paco Del Stinko » Wed May 28, 2014 4:08 am

Good luck to all who moved on, it'll only get more and more brutal from here. Always glad to have participated, this year was especially tough for me on the personal front EVEN WITH THE EXTRA DAYS! ;) No, I won't let it go. Regardless, always good times, yo yo yo.

Fellow ousted participants: Don't forget to vote in the final round. NUR EIN!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Nur Ein! IX Round 5

Postby Caravan Ray » Wed May 28, 2014 4:29 am

BenKrieger wrote:where the stupid and ridiculous is taken seriously.

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Re: Nur Ein! IX Round 5

Postby Caravan Ray » Wed May 28, 2014 4:38 am

Paco Del Stinko wrote: EVEN WITH THE EXTRA DAYS! ;) No, I won't let it go.

I guess we should start a thread about this - but I am in two minds about it.

Firstly - I didn't realise we would get extra days. I thought that Mangluts proposal was just a set time for the new title. Same number of days, but time wouldn't slide if the judges were a bit slow.

But extra days was good in some ways. I think far less drop outs. That is good. I had to do a lot of travel to outback QLD over the past few weeks - so the definite timetable and extra days helped me a lot.

BUT

THere was a certain lack of intensity I think. And less feedback from competitors - me included - because we had the whole week to work, and not that few days of waiting and no working -where we bitched and whined and generally made arseholes of ourselves.

The full-on Nur-Ein stress was down a notch or two this year. But we probably got a few more better songs.

Which is better? I don't know. Both are pretty good.
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Re: Nur Ein! IX Round 5

Postby Generic » Wed May 28, 2014 7:57 am

BenKrieger wrote:
noma wrote:I'm curious as to why I was rated that low.


I can't even remember at this point what it was like being a judge, but I know there are often some heavy discussion regarding the challenge. I'm a judge who would have wanted to put you at the top of the list for the quality of the song, would have actually put you in the middle of the list because it wasn't the strongest execution of the challenge, and ultimately would have rated you lower once it was pointed out to me that hey--this is Nur Ein. The challenge is everything, especially if you make it this far in the competition. I'm thinking that the judges were really looking for examples where the double-time really throws the listener into the shift? The Tom Petty example is a good one: when it goes into double-time, you really know it, feel it, and it's so essential to the song that it's inconceivable to imagine it not being there.


I'll post full reviews later today, but I wanted to chime in that I don't think Nick's elimination was challenge-related. We'll see what the other judges have to say, as far as I'm concerned, I just thought it was a sloppy song, and a disappointing downtick in quality from previous weeks.

I didn't dock anyone for the challenge implementation this week, but I did think that Ken and Ross used it better than the rest, which helped them out in my rankings. I suspect that a somewhat weak challenge implementation may have been the reason one judge put Tydon Docks at the bottom (top-two showings with two other judges seem to have saved him).
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Re: Nur Ein! IX Round 5

Postby BenKrieger » Wed May 28, 2014 8:54 am

Well ok, now I'm really interested in the judges feedback for everyone.
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Re: Nur Ein! IX Round 5

Postby Manhattan Glutton » Wed May 28, 2014 9:06 am

Caravan Ray wrote:THere was a certain lack of intensity I think. And less feedback from competitors - me included - because we had the whole week to work, and not that few days of waiting and no working -where we bitched and whined and generally made arseholes of ourselves.

The full-on Nur-Ein stress was down a notch or two this year. But we probably got a few more better songs.

Which is better? I don't know. Both are pretty good.

I'm happy about not having to drop out in round 2 and the quality of my songs.

It seems the intensity can be solved by people (judges and contestants) actually participating. Jon Eric's been the only judge consistently painting a target on his back, and well, that's no fun. With the challenges, titles, and rankings at all-time lows, some targets would be good. I mean seriously, a judging panel of Caravan Ray, J$, and a bar of soap would have been more intelligible. ;)

(How's that for intensity?)
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Re: Nur Ein! IX Round 5

Postby Paco Del Stinko » Wed May 28, 2014 9:35 am

Here's what ya do next year. Back to the five days. Regardless of whether judging results are in, post the title after the two day wait. The wait adds suspense at the same time as offering a breather. How'd it go? Monday, Tuesday wait, Wednesday through Sunday night working on songs. Sounds good. Bring that back.

If you can't participate, then don't. Or do like Frankie would do and start up and then bail out mid-way so he could fly to the Riviera or whatever. Part of the fun of the contest was/is the shorter time span to do everything in. Pressure man, pressure!

As far as judging goes, I don't know what to say except that some years are better than others. I was a terrrible judge for coming up with challenges: the few suggestions I made were lame and quickly disregarded. My reviewing was inconsistent as well. I will stand by my rankings, though, as I'm sure this current crop will as well.

It's supposed to be fun, and the rigid structure somehow makes that all the more enjoyable. Save casual recording for private time. Hey, I do that too. Even in my cave. :)
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Re: Nur Ein! IX Round 5

Postby Generic » Wed May 28, 2014 9:58 am

Manhattan Glutton wrote:
Caravan Ray wrote:THere was a certain lack of intensity I think. And less feedback from competitors - me included - because we had the whole week to work, and not that few days of waiting and no working -where we bitched and whined and generally made arseholes of ourselves.

The full-on Nur-Ein stress was down a notch or two this year. But we probably got a few more better songs.

Which is better? I don't know. Both are pretty good.

I'm happy about not having to drop out in round 2 and the quality of my songs.

It seems the intensity can be solved by people (judges and contestants) actually participating. Jon Eric's been the only judge consistently painting a target on his back, and well, that's no fun. With the challenges, titles, and rankings at all-time lows, some targets would be good. I mean seriously, a judging panel of Caravan Ray, J$, and a bar of soap would have been more intelligible. ;)

(How's that for intensity?)


Yeah, I basically nominated myself for the "running interference" judge. It's been surprisingly fun, though I do miss the thrill of the fight too. My life has just been too hectic lately for me to come out with eight songs in 7 days each. Though I might have some new material coming soon.

So is this a thing that the competitiors are feeling? I'm looking especially to those competitiors who've been in a lot of Eins (and who've made it through to the second half): John, Ben, Ken, Glen, Sam, Erin, Pedro, Charlie, Ross... Has it felt "less intense" this year than in Nur Eins past?
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Re: Nur Ein! IX Round 5

Postby Paco Del Stinko » Wed May 28, 2014 10:25 am

Charlie would be me. Yeah, I think it feels less intense. My gripes have been stated, repeatedly. I think it's the time frame. When you have five days from issuance of title to completion, you are basically forced to think of nothing else. It's almost all-consuming. Sure, you could still do it in five days by yourself. Not look at the title, if you possess that kind of restraint. But not the same.

The challenges ahave been good and the titles will always be hit or miss, depending on who's looking. Bad for me, good to that guy over there. It's all about the time frame.

OK. I'll zip it and step aside now.

I hope.

:)
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Re: Nur Ein! IX Round 5

Postby Manhattan Glutton » Wed May 28, 2014 10:28 am

It appears that this is where the different motivations for participating are becoming increasingly obvious.

It seems a good chunk of people participate because wacky song competition fun, and then others participate because it's a good opportunity/motivation to make music.
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Re: Nur Ein! IX Round 5

Postby Paco Del Stinko » Wed May 28, 2014 10:42 am

It's both. I love the rules and direction of the EIN and SF! proper. And I love the freedom of doing my own thing, without restrictions. It feels so liberating, especially after the EIN. Not one or the other, for me. I love making music and once in a while I make some that's pretty good, if I dare say so myself, whether here at SF! or on my own. SOngifht gives a direction, is all.

But for this particular competition, I think part of the fun is the pressure.

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