Nur Ein IX Round Six "Videoland"

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Nur Ein IX Round Six "Videoland"

Post by noma »

Welcome to Videoland!

I dig this challenge. Even if I get kicked out in this round, I think I'm gonna send in a Nein entry because I like the challenge so much. 8-)
Anyway, I thought it would be nice that if you already have a good idea about what classical piece you're going to use in the song, you could post it here so that none get used in two songs. If that's OK with you.
I immediately thought of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata. I hope you guys didn't have the same idea :D
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Six

Post by JonPorobil »

For the record, I won't hold it against any participant if I hear the same piece of Classical Music sampled by two or more different entries. :D
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Six

Post by Ross »

I sort of prefer to work in an idea vacuum while preparing for challenges.

Of course, whether i move on or not means this may be moot.
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Six

Post by Rabid Garfunkel »

Generic wrote:For the record, I won't hold it against any participant if I hear the same piece of Classical Music sampled by two or more different entries. :D
Even if they're dubstep Carmina Buranas? :twisted:
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Six

Post by noma »

Depending on whether you interpret it as "classical" music, you could not use any sample at all and then claim that you played John Cage's 4'33'' all over your song. :lol:
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Six

Post by Ross »

Yeah, looking forward to the "what do you mean by 'classical?'" debate.
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Six

Post by JonPorobil »

Wow, it actually took a little bit longer than I thought it would for the "What counts as 'Classical Music?'" debate!

Obviously, if you tried to get away with "sampling" 4'33", then I would expect some kind of contextual indication in your lyrics to let us in on the gag. Sort of like what Caravan Ray did with his "Watertight."

I was looking to see if maybe Billboard had some kind of rubric for the albums they count towards their Classical chart, but I came up empty. I will not be so strict as to include only the Classical Period (1750-1820), but rather use the broader definition of "Classical Music," which incorporates pretty much all music written before about 1900, and quite a bit of music in the 20th and 21st centuries. If you're going to include something written in the last 114 years, please use your judgement, bearing in mind that the judges need to be able to recognize what you've done, and preferably with minimal explanation post-facto.

I know that there were many composers working in the 20th century (and who continue to work today) in what is referred to as a "Classical Style," and I don't wish to exclude those, if that's where your musical garden grows. If it's orchestral, you're probably fine. If it's solo piano, or a concerto with another instrument, you're probably fine. I trust the competitors, having been smart enough to make it this far, will be able to tell the subjective difference between Billy Joel's "Air (Dublinesque)" and Billy Joel's "River of Dreams," even though the two pieces were written only seven years apart and both by the same person.

In other words: use your common sense, please.
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Six

Post by BenKrieger »

actually, nick, I thought that feeding Moonlight Sonata through a heavy distortion pedal and building a black metal song around it would be be a great way to suicide out if the contest. Of course I won't do that if I move on to the round, but it *was* tempting. Actually, if I'm eliminated I will consider submitting this idea for Nein.

I would argue that "Bittersweet Symphony" counts as a fair implementation of this challenge even though the song was not originally classical.
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Six

Post by glennny »

Moonlight sonata? I would guess you don't listen to much classical music. That's kind of the Louie Louie of classical music.

Does classical = orchestral? I have Boulez conducting London Philharmonic doing orchestral Zappa, and orchestral Radiohead. Somehow those don't seem appropriate but 50 years earlier string quartets seem okay. Where do you dram the line? What about the string quartet version of Elenor Rigby?

To me the rule is orchestral and written before Elvis, but that seems ridiculous.

( I know I'm out of the contest, but I enjoy the banter)
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Six

Post by Caravan Ray »

glennny wrote:Moonlight sonata? I would guess you don't listen to much classical music. That's kind of the Louie Louie of classical music.
I'm reading this post in The Simpson's 'Comic Book Guy' voice.
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Six

Post by noma »

glennny wrote:Moonlight sonata? I would guess you don't listen to much classical music. That's kind of the Louie Louie of classical music.
That's true, I don't. Does that make me a bad person? :oops:
I just had a good idea based on that piano melody that immediately came to my mind when I read the challenge and the title. I'm well aware that using the Moonlight Sonata may come off as generic, but that was my initial idea and I've already got an ambitious concept (ambitious for me, anyway) that revolves around the well-known melody of the first movement's very beginning (which you might call a "riff" nowadays, I think).
Hopefully I won't get kicked out for doing something so bland and overused. :| but ah well, it's round 6, I don't really mind that much. Wouldn't have guessed I'd make it this far anyway. 8-)
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Six

Post by glennny »

Yeah, I'm the comic guy, it's true.
Sorry Nick, just some friendly teasing. What do I know? I know now that Schoenberg is probably a bad idea.
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Six

Post by noma »

No offense taken. ;)

I actually liked your New Ugly, it just needed a little time to grow on me.
I also enjoy Schoenberg's "Farben" from his op. 16, but that one is probably his Louie Louie, anyway. :P
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Six

Post by Albatross »

No, Pachelbel's Canon is the Louie Louie of classical music.
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Six

Post by Ross »

glennny wrote: Does classical = orchestral? I have Boulez conducting London Philharmonic doing orchestral Zappa, and orchestral Radiohead. Somehow those don't seem appropriate but 50 years earlier string quartets seem okay. Where do you dram the line? What about the string quartet version of Elenor Rigby?

To me the rule is orchestral and written before Elvis, but that seems ridiculous.

( I know I'm out of the contest, but I enjoy the banter)
I also enjoy the banter. I don't think classical should equal orchestral. Sampling an orchestra playing Kashmir does NOT make it classical. Zappa is interesting, if Boulez is conducting "The Yellow Shark" - that's classical, radiohead? No way. And Mozart sonatas should certainly qualify.

The Elvis rule seems shorsighted, so much great "classical" music has been written since then, almost everything by one of my favorite composers, Lutoslawski, was written since then, Gorecki's third symphony was written in the 70s.

When people start sampling Phillip Glass and making a techno beat lines may begin to get a little blurry (i am guessing it is not his quartet you were thinking of, since it is post Elvis, I'm guessing Bartok or Shostakovich). I also assume at some point someone will ask whether film music counts - that's be an interesting debate - theme to Star Wars, classical or not?

Looking forward to your banter back.
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Six

Post by Caravan Ray »

Ross wrote: I don't think classical should equal orchestral....theme to Star Wars, classical or not?
I understand what you are saying here and agree with this - and no, I don't think the theme to Star Wars would qualify (even though, if you played me a less well known John Williams movie theme and told me it was Beethoven - I could not tell the difference).

One ''classical' thing that I do know and may consider using is "The Lark Ascending" by Vaughn Williams - which probably isn't 'classical' because it is 20th century. But I think I have heard it used on an ad for coffee. I only know it because it was on the wonderful soundtrack of the movie "The Year My Voice Broke", along with some awesome 60s songs by The Troggs and Gene Pitney, etc.. But I do know it wasn't written for that movie specifically (composed 1914 says Wikipedia) - so it should count.

Essentially, while I hope there is no real hard line on actual "classical" definitions - I think modern orchestral movie/tv themes shouldn't be included.
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Six

Post by Caravan Ray »

And WTF?!?!?! I'm still in this?!?!?

Round 5 is traditionally the round where my sorry arse gets booted out!
Oh well - I do have a pretty free week this week - so, onward and upward.

I think Paco got particularly shafted this week
And Nick and Pedro have been my favourites overall so far - would have liked to see them go head to head in the final. Bad luck guys

Better go home and start raiding my very meagre classical music collection
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Six

Post by Caravan Ray »

noma wrote:Depending on whether you interpret it as "classical" music, you could not use any sample at all and then claim that you played John Cage's 4'33'' all over your song. :lol:
It's been done. I used a one minute sample of John Cage's 4'33'' at the end of my song last week.
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Six

Post by Ross »

Caravan Ray wrote:
Ross wrote: I don't think classical should equal orchestral....theme to Star Wars, classical or not?
I understand what you are saying here and agree with this - and no, I don't think the theme to Star Wars would qualify (even though, if you played me a less well known John Williams movie theme and told me it was Beethoven - I could not tell the difference).

One ''classical' thing that I do know and may consider using is "The Lark Ascending" by Vaughn Williams - which probably isn't 'classical' because it is 20th century. But I think I have heard it used on an ad for coffee. I only know it because it was on the wonderful soundtrack of the movie "The Year My Voice Broke", along with some awesome 60s songs by The Troggs and Gene Pitney, etc.. But I do know it wasn't written for that movie specifically (composed 1914 says Wikipedia) - so it should count.
I think you would be totally safe there, If the judges meant strictly music from the "classical period" they had better say so by now. The Lark Ascending is BEAUTIFUL and is clearly in the larger meaning of the word "classical."
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Six

Post by noma »

Well, now that I'm out of the contest, I don't have to fear my Moonlight Sonata sample being too generic. I'm gonna send in a Nein entry anyway. :)
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Six

Post by Caravan Ray »

Ooh...here's a question!

I just searched "Classical" on my iTunes library - and up came Yo To Ma and Bobby McFerrin's "Hush" album of well-known "Classical" music done on just cello and voice.

eg:


Would that stuff pass muster?
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Re: Nur Ein IX - Round Six

Post by JonPorobil »

Ross wrote:
glennny wrote: Does classical = orchestral? I have Boulez conducting London Philharmonic doing orchestral Zappa, and orchestral Radiohead. Somehow those don't seem appropriate but 50 years earlier string quartets seem okay. Where do you dram the line? What about the string quartet version of Elenor Rigby?

To me the rule is orchestral and written before Elvis, but that seems ridiculous.

( I know I'm out of the contest, but I enjoy the banter)
I also enjoy the banter. I don't think classical should equal orchestral. Sampling an orchestra playing Kashmir does NOT make it classical. Zappa is interesting, if Boulez is conducting "The Yellow Shark" - that's classical, radiohead? No way. And Mozart sonatas should certainly qualify.

The Elvis rule seems shorsighted, so much great "classical" music has been written since then, almost everything by one of my favorite composers, Lutoslawski, was written since then, Gorecki's third symphony was written in the 70s.

When people start sampling Phillip Glass and making a techno beat lines may begin to get a little blurry (i am guessing it is not his quartet you were thinking of, since it is post Elvis, I'm guessing Bartok or Shostakovich). I also assume at some point someone will ask whether film music counts - that's be an interesting debate - theme to Star Wars, classical or not?

Looking forward to your banter back.
I also love the banter aspect of this. Even more so now that I'm a judge.

For the record, the official ruling is: If you have something you want to use, and you're not sure if it counts as "Classical," please provide the clip and context to the judges to see if it's allowable. Furthermore, please only do this for specific pieces if you intend to use them, because I'm happy to banter back and forth with y'all, but I don't speak for the other judges, and we collectively don't all have time to put each thing to a five-person vote if you're not serious about using the piece you're asking about.

So. Film scores? Yikes. I was worried someone would ask that, because I don't have a straight answer. I think in general I'd say "No" to film scores, though I could see certain ones sneaking in under our collective radars.

As for songs that were written as pop music and then adapted into string quartets or what-have-you, that's a clear-cut "No." The piece you use must have been written as a "Classical" composition.

Ross mentioned something about the Classical Period - I know you guys don't hang on my every word, but I already specifically said that Classical does not mean just 1750-1820 in this context.

I agree that the "Before Elvis" rule is fairly shortsighted, but it's a decent starting point. You would certainly do well to exercise more scrutiny when selecting a piece if it comes from after 1950, however there were a lot of great composers still writing in "Classical" modes in the latter half of the 20th century - symphonies, operas, concertos, and so on. And of course there's still a thriving (if not quite as populous as it once was) movement of composers who to this day create new music in a genre that is now somewhat mis-named as Classical.

This is especially important to me because I would be looking at 20th Century music if I were a competitor in this round. Which brings me to one of my favorite examples of a song that would fit the bill for this:



Dr. Octagon (aka Kool Keith) samples "Music for Strings, Percussion & Celesta (Allegro)" by Béla Bartók (1936). Dr. Octagon was an outlet for Kool Keith's inner music geek, and that's why I love that disc.

Bartok is one of many 20th Century composers I would be eyeing. There's also Anton Webern, whose tense orchestral pieces would be ideal for an Einer looking to exploit the "darker" side of Classical. There's Harry Partch, who did a lot of experimentation with microtonal scales (scales with more than 12 chromatic notes) and built his own instruments to play them. There's Conlon Nancarrow, who made his own experimental player piano rolls, and used the form to write pieces that would have been impossible for human hands to play. Someone has already brought up John Cage for his 4'33",, but the fact is that Cage wrote a lot of cool music that's just begging to be sampled in a pop song. Google his Sonatas and Interludes for Prepared Piano if you wanna check that out. There's Charles Ives, who played around with the American March style and made some pretty subversive pieces with it.

And, of course, there's Phillip Glass. He's an interesting character, and he touches on a lot of the aspects of this challenge that are borderline. He works with electronic instruments. He's minimalist. He does film and television scores. His work is distinctly "modern" in that no one would ever hear it and think they were listening to Mozart. I haven't discussed any specific cases with the other judges, but I would rule that Phillip Glass is permissible for this round, and I'll fight any judge who argues otherwise. HOWEVER, I urge you to make sure you're not just picking Glass because of how easy it would be to massage his music into something more palatable for modern listeners, compared with other composers. If you sample Phillip Glass, it should be distinct in your song, or recognizable as something you brought in from outside your studio.

I hope this rambling was helpful and/or interesting to you all. Remember, if in doubt, ask the judges.
Last edited by JonPorobil on Wed May 28, 2014 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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