Lying just under the surface of (Uncharted Waters reviews)

Discuss upcoming, current, and previous song fights.
Toby Roktot
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Re: Lying just under the surface of (Uncharted Waters reviews)

Post by Toby Roktot »

Hey, welcome to the boards Crumpart...
Sorry for my delayed welcome but, I just haven’t had the opportunity to visit the boards with any regularity.
Being a relatively newbie, I’ve moved through this type of emotions and come through better for it. A lot of times when I’m reviewing, I have to check my mood and try not to let outside issues interfere. Sometimes, not easily accomplished.
I’m not suggesting this how others approach reviews, just my own.
Anyways, I agree it’s not easy to conceive, write, rewrite, record, discord, get pissed (in all ways) mix, master, demo and submit work in a week. I truly envy the ones that do this week after week and send in some of the best songs we listen to.
Keep on keeping on and as you well know...practice makes perfect or, at least, not to suck as much... Welcome aboard !!
Cya,
Tob
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Pigfarmer Jr
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Re: Lying just under the surface of (Uncharted Waters reviews)

Post by Pigfarmer Jr »

Victor is a beast. Flash or subtle inflection, whatever the song needs.
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Leaf
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Re: Lying just under the surface of (Uncharted Waters reviews)

Post by Leaf »

crumpart wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:09 am
stuff I read
I regretted the process of replying to you with knee-jerk emotion.
I don't know you, you don't know me, that was an unnecessary path to go down.
I missed at first that you were making a parody of my review, and I did laugh when I noticed it later.
If I go back in time, I ignore that reply.

A day later, I'm thinking... ahhh. Why???
My advice to myself is don't react in a knee-jerk manner.
Don't defend. Reflect.

I apologize for that knee jerk response.

I have reflected on your post now, quoted above in brevity so this doesn't spill over two pages.

Attacking me, the way I review, claim that a dumb joke is enough evidence to support an argument that I must know nothing about music... or claim I was negative about everyone in my reviews... that is all an attempt to discredit me, to invalidate my observations about a performance.

There is an aspect of that I can accept (acknowledged below), but framing things around "I think you sound like an asshole, therefore I should be allowed to criticize and attack you for that ... therefore your criticism of my song is not valid"... I do not accept that.

when I submit something to SF, I sort through the genre based rejection reviews, and look for the parts where people share objective view points. Praise is nice, but it isn't useful.
In "Hope against Hope" , a reviewer shared that he thought the vocals were too linear and lacked movement, it followed the bass line too much.

As a drummer, I guess that might be expected, but at the same time,I realize there is a trick some will play on themselves as artists. That trick is "maybe it's good enough". Couple this with the way most of us tend to appreciate our own work... and you can be at risk of deluding yourself. I've caught myself doing it before, and I don't like it.

So, when I do vocals on a song, I hope that my style, delivery and lyrics could carry a lead vocal enough to cover up the fact that I would never make it into any round of American Idol or the Voice, I don't have that much ability or tone.
I hope I would be heard like a "Joe Strummer" or, Bernard from New Order, or Neil Young, or Roger Waters, there is a list of these people. People who are not great singers, but succeed on their ideas, their vibe, their unique tone, or emotion, etc.
Well.. clearly that didn't happen, or he wouldn't have said it.
I could have decided to reject his view, because he didn't "get what I was going for", or my deficiencies, or that I "wanted it that way". Objectively, he was right. It was a little dull. I don't even know if I can go back to that one and fix it too, because my ear can get committed to repetition.

When I just take in the criticism, especially the negative, and assume it's valid, regardless of that person's background, beliefs, how their day went, etc... I can use it to improve, every time, in some way. Frankly, I see your replies to me in the same way, or I wouldn't still be trying to communicate with you.

When I practice, when I have those moments that it seems HARD, I progress and get better. My singing does improve.My writing does improve, because I'm open to that information, and because I work at it. When it's easy, it might be good, it might be okay, but it's never improving.

I have been thinking about that review, and working on that from the moment I read it. I didn't get mad at the reviewer. I started thinking about how I was going to improve that part of my game. That guy shared an observation with me, I didn't even have to pay for it. It helped. I appreciate it.



You have insinuated I likely know nothing about music because I made a joke about your violin, and that I was predominantly negative in my reviews of everyone's work, and tell me I am asshole in my reviews. Maybe not in real life, but in the reviews. (I am paraphrasing how I read your post.) It leads to the conclusion that it's okay to reject the opinions I share, as they have no merit. You are also saying that the way someone says something some how impacts it's validity. This is not factual.

In terms of "arsehole", or as I prefer, "asshole".

I accept the definition of an "asshole" as someone who exploits an existing and agreed upon system, using a sense of entitlement to justify or excuse their behavior.

Example, "cutting in line because someone thinks their time is more important than yours".

Within the context of the opinions on the music, that is not my lane.
(there are reddit posts and a documentary on the guy who came up with this definition, it's great).

If it's about " I don't like your humour, or your use of it in the reviews". Fine. I can accept that part of your complaint.

Unless you are professional comedian, (and even then) most humour will be perceived by someone as assholish. Being an asshole can be funny in itself, and is often used by professional comedians!
...I am not a comedian, but there isn't a day that goes by that I don't make someone laugh, I guess I'm lucky to be around people who know that part of me and get it... but that doesn't matter.
I'm not under a delusion that I am a pro comedian or that everyone is going to get me.
I also am not going to stop being me just because I bump into someone who can't handle it.
So, sure. If that part reads to you as assholish, I'm sorry you felt that way about that part.
But you know what, you got your own vibe going on too, just saying.

Regardless, that doesn't invalidate my points about your song at all.
I did not call anyone any names, or insult them personally.


I did...


I did call your violin an accordion.



Sigh.


I did think that was funny, so I guess.. I owe your violin a... something. I dunno.
That said, let's stay in the lane here.

I am not coming from that place when talking about music. I am coming from a place of sharing what I felt, and what I thought when I heard it, and I attempt to be as honest as possible, and since I value honest critiques of my work, especially about objective details like tuning, timing, etc... I share those thoughts.

This isn't a youtube comment section where someone is spewing sour grapes or ripping on someone. It's a review forum for songs in a songFIGHT.

It's not an asshole move to do that, on a site where you are literally asking people to judge, rate, vote and comment on your tune.It's not songSHARE or songHUG. There are other forums for that type of exchange.

There is no false sense of entitlement in communicating and reviewing an entry, on a forum built for communicating and reviewing an entry.

So, it's not an asshole move to tell someone their timing is off, their guitar is out of tune, etc. These are basic fundamentals and they don't even take a lot of time to fix if you are open to fixing them.

On that topic, I reject your dissertation on who I am or what I am.

I do not, for one second, think that you should not do songfight, or write, or record music. If you somehow got THAT from my post (which you have not said yet), well, that would be something I would also apologize for because that is not something I believe.

To be clear, I don't know you, and I am NOT judging you as a person, on this exchange or your song.

If you prefer, I will not review your stuff in any of the fucked up ways I like to review, because I have no desire to antagonize you.
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crumpart
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Re: Lying just under the surface of (Uncharted Waters reviews)

Post by crumpart »

Leaf, all I’m going to say is this, and then I’m leaving this discussion. You can go away and think about how you approach reviews or not. Your first line of my review, to a person you’ve never met or interacted with before in any way, was “Everyone gets a participation ribbon at somepoint”. If I’d come out immediately and critiqued your review of my work with a review of your review, that would have been an over-reaction on my part. I didn’t. I was upset, sure, but I responded to you with a joke (based in my mind on the Van Halen M&Ms stage contract story), because to not respond at all would lead you to believe that it’s ok to talk to people you don’t know that way. Then you doubled down later by calling me “incompetent” and pulled the Dunning-Kruger passive aggressive insult card card on me. I didn’t even see whatever it was you originally wrote to me before editing, but apparently it was worse. If I can’t stand up for myself and give you my “honest” opinion in those circumstances, when can I?
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Leaf
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Re: Lying just under the surface of (Uncharted Waters reviews)

Post by Leaf »

I communicate a lot of thoughts ,... so I appreciate you wading through it whether it was helpful or not.

I missed one area of accountability that I should have thought about.
I jumped into a review a year and half since my last one with the assumption the community was the same and everyone would take my spontaneous ADHD self with a grain of salt. That's totally on me.

After that, I'm not taking on any more accountability.

I get that a "participation ribbon" comment might affect how someone feels.
I've gone to some lengths to explain exactly why I see value in those moments.

That said, I've explained in such detail as much as I can, so I agree, time to move on from the discussion.
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