Friend Flooding and You

GlennCase · Post by **GlennCase** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:22 pm

Ah, yes. The SongFight friend flood.

Different opinions exist on the subject, but let me tell you about my personal experience on the issue. Perhaps it will prove to be a story of some value.

Rewind to July of 2003. I found out about SongFight through <a href="http://www.frontalot.com">MC Frontalot's</a> website, and his nerdcore hiphop inspired me to use my rap roots to make an entry for the <a href="http://www.songfight.org/songpage.php?k ... bo">"Mumbo Jumbo"</a> fight. I <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sockheads ... 3339">told friends about it</a>, and I won!

Thing is, even when you tell your friends to listen to everyone's song, and vote for the best one? There's a good chance that your friends will try to help you out by voting for your track no matter how good or bad it may be.

So, while there is no rule that says that you can't try to gather votes, In some cases this can potentially create a backlash if people don't believe that your song deserved to win.

Most Songfighters appreciate having more people listen to their music, so by all means, promote the site if you like. If I had the chance to do it all over again, I would have waited to promote Songfight until after the votes had already been tallied for my first fight. I don't consider my <a href="http://www.songfight.org/songpage.php?k ... bo">"Mumbo Jumbo"</a> to be a true victory, the same way that I don't consider <a href="http://www.songfight.org/songpage.php?k ... day">"Dark All Day"</a> to be a victory. With <a href="http://www.songfight.org/songpage.php?k ... day">"Dark All Day"</a>, I failed to mention the whole friend flooding concept to a bandmate, and he told a bunch of friends. We won that fight by a very large margin, and I don't believe it was even CLOSE to being the best song that week.

It's natural to want to win, but I would say that there is a LOT more to Songfight than the vote counts.

No, the first one that felt like a "true" victory was the one I didn't tell any of my friends about: Our entry for the <a href="http://www.songfight.org/songpage.php?k ... lts">"Need Stilts"</a> fight. It is often still referred to as one of the best songs I have had a part in writing.

The idea being that you will probably win the fight without any help from friend's votes if you just try to write a great song.

So, that's the concept of what this "friend flood" business is all about. Feel free to share your own thoughts about the subject in this thread.

ROCK!

Glenn Case

deshead · Post by **deshead** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:49 pm

I like when the fightmasters slip a little barb into the fight summary of a flooded fight.

Reist · Post by **Reist** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:09 pm

Voting for yourself multiple times is also bad. I did that for my first few entries. At the time I thought that I should have won, and wasn't very happy when I lost. I guess that when people first show up at songfight, they think that their music is the best and deserves to win, so they flood it.

GlennCase · Post by **GlennCase** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:18 pm

deshead wrote:I like when the fightmasters slip a little barb into the fight summary of a flooded fight.

Heh! I admit to having <a href="http://www.songfight.org/songpage.php?k ... laughed</a> at a <a href="http://www.songfight.org/songpage.php?k ... ng">couple </a>of those myself.

jolly roger wrote:Voting for yourself multiple times is also bad. I did that for my first few entries. At the time I thought that I should have won, and wasn't very happy when I lost. I guess that when people first show up at songfight, they think that their music is the best and deserves to win, so they flood it.

Yes, that is also considered to be poor form for sure. I started adopting the idea of voting for my favorite entry that isn't me. On some occasions I may actually like my own song better than any other entry, but then I think about how stupid I would feel if I only got one vote, and that vote was my own.

For that reason, I wear my Basket Robbers loss in the <a href="http://www.songfight.org/songpage.php?k ... n">"Cosmic Confirmation"</a> fight like a badge of honor. I got good reviews, but I didn't get a single vote. I feel better about that song than either of the friend flood victories I mentioned above.

Niveous · Post by **Niveous** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:23 pm

deshead wrote:I like when the fightmasters slip a little barb into the fight summary of a flooded fight.

Did Lon flood that fight? I think that was a straight up whipping. This is a good barb example: http://www.songfight.org/songpage.php?key=driving

Damn you Glenn for reading my mind.

GlennCase · Post by **GlennCase** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:35 pm

Niveous wrote: Damn you Glenn for reading my mind.

Heh! It just stands out in my mind as perhaps the most obvious friend flood of Songfight history, and the barb particularly made me laugh as a result.

Sorry to steal your thunder.

ROCK!

Glenn Case

jeff robertson · Post by **jeff robertson** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:48 pm

When I said "is it still friend-flooding if I tell my friends to vote for someone else", I meant to explicitly recommend a particular song, by someone other than me.

For example, on my blog I just posted a message telling people how awesome JB's "Plastic Rose" is.

Is this still friend-flooding? It could theoretically impact the votes and cause JB to win, although probably it won't because I really don't have that many friends.

I'm not even in the Plastic Rose fight. If I was, but I still told people to vote for JB because I really thought he kicked my ass, would that be friend-flooding?

Basically, is it "OK" to talk about SongFight outside of SongFight, at all..

jeff robertson · Post by **jeff robertson** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:51 pm

GlennCase wrote:I started adopting the idea of voting for my favorite entry that isn't me. On some occasions I may actually like my own song better than any other entry, but then I think about how stupid I would feel if I only got one vote, and that vote was my own.

Words of wisdom. This should be in the FAQ.

GlennCase · Post by **GlennCase** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:07 pm

jeff robertson wrote:When I said "is it still friend-flooding if I tell my friends to vote for someone else", I meant to explicitly recommend a particular song, by someone other than me.

For example, on my blog I just posted a message telling people how awesome JB's "Plastic Rose" is.

Is this still friend-flooding? It could theoretically impact the votes and cause JB to win, although probably it won't because I really don't have that many friends.

I'm not even in the Plastic Rose fight. If I was, but I still told people to vote for JB because I really thought he kicked my ass, would that be friend-flooding?

Basically, is it "OK" to talk about SongFight outside of SongFight, at all..

Wow, good question!

This is strictly my opinion, but I don't see as much of an issue with the scneario that you describe, and here's why:

I see a friend flood as an artist getting an unfair voting advantage that benefits their own vote count.

In both of your cases, you are describing a scenario where you genuinely REALLY liked a song, and you wanted people to hear it.

Now, granted, it might be better form to introduce people to this amazing song AFTER the votes have already been counted and a winner announced, because it might affect the vote count. Just like friend flooding in and of itself, it's a matter of using your own judgement.

As far as I am concerned, promoting Songfight is NEVER a bad thing. The timing in which you do so is really just up to your own discretion.

ROCK!

Glenn Case

Post by jb » Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:24 pm

it is absolutely ok to tell people how awesome i am.

Caravan Ray · Post by **Caravan Ray** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:04 am

GlennCase wrote:
jolly roger wrote:Voting for yourself multiple times is also bad.
Yes, that is also considered to be poor form for sure.

While travelling to and from Santa Cruz - transiting drunkly through various airport lounges with computer facilities, I think I managed to lodge about 3 or 4 seperate votes for my "Rhymes With Lucia" - and it finished up with a grand total of 6.

I knew it could never be traced - because each vote was being placed in a different city and/or country. A very cunning plan indeed and I would have gotten away with it if I had have done it about 10 more times.

Ratt Poizon · Post by **Ratt Poizon** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:40 am

Perhaps some week you should have a Friend Flood Fight. That way if I enter it I will get 2 votes. Like I always do. I like songfight.

fluffy · Post by **fluffy** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:37 am

jeff robertson wrote:
GlennCase wrote:I started adopting the idea of voting for my favorite entry that isn't me. On some occasions I may actually like my own song better than any other entry, but then I think about how stupid I would feel if I only got one vote, and that vote was my own.
Words of wisdom. This should be in the FAQ.

the faq wrote: We really wish you wouldn't. Voting multiple times doesn't really get you anything does it? There's no prize or anything after all, and what satisfaction is there in bragging rights if you cheated to get them?

It's specifically about multiple self-votes but friendfloods are basically the same thing.

Paco Del Stinko · Post by **Paco Del Stinko** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:31 am

RattPoizen wrote:Friend Flood Fight

Say that three times fast!

jack · Post by **jack** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:47 pm

fluffy wrote:
jeff robertson wrote:
GlennCase wrote:I started adopting the idea of voting for my favorite entry that isn't me. On some occasions I may actually like my own song better than any other entry, but then I think about how stupid I would feel if I only got one vote, and that vote was my own.
Words of wisdom. This should be in the FAQ.

the faq wrote: We really wish you wouldn't. Voting multiple times doesn't really get you anything does it? There's no prize or anything after all, and what satisfaction is there in bragging rights if you cheated to get them?
It's specifically about multiple self-votes but friendfloods are basically the same thing.

uh, how do you figure that?

in one case, you are controlling the vote yourself, by voting repeatedly, while in the other you are not.

just because you solicit a vote, or ask someone to vote for you, it doesn't mean they will, and you have no control over that.

cheating and pimping are 2 distinctly different things.

fluffy · Post by **fluffy** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:03 pm

The end result is the same, which is what this whole discussion is about (the end result of getting votes in a way other than having everyone listen to all the songs and deciding yours is the best).

jack · Post by **jack** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:12 pm

you're pretty fucking naive if you think everyone that votes listens to every song and picks the best.

have you ever actually admitted being wrong about anything?

fluffy · Post by **fluffy** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:14 pm

Whatever.

jack · Post by **jack** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:24 pm

hey, we can agree on something!

fluffy · Post by **fluffy** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:29 pm

I just don't see what I said that I have to admit being wrong about.

I do admit to being wrong all the damn time, when it's called for. I usually prefer to just not talk out my ass to begin with. Do you have any particular threads in mind where I was stubbornly refusing to admit to be wrong? The only one I can think of is that famous thread regarding video formats which wasn't that myself or the other were wrong, we were just debating completely different points. Which seems to be EXACTLY the issue here, too.

This conversation is about friend flooding, which is to say, urging friends to flood your vote. Which has the same end result as you personally putting in bogus votes. That is ALL I am saying, and why I felt that the FAQ entry regarding multiple self-votes still applies.

That is completely orthogonal to non-friend-flooders who just listen to a few songs and vote for their favorite of that set, which isn't a problem anyway because as long as it's a random selection of the songs then statistically-speaking it all averages out. (Of course if people listen via "stream all" they get it in the same order and so it's biased towards people who are alphabetically-lower.) But again, that's an entirely different issue.

Anyway, like I said, whatever. I'm done here.

jack · Post by **jack** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:44 pm

boo fuckin hoo. who voted you the moral savior of songfight?

i want a recount.

PiGPEN · Post by **PiGPEN** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:09 pm

Caravan Ray wrote: While travelling to and from Santa Cruz - transiting drunkly through various airport lounges with computer facilities, I think I managed to lodge about 3 or 4 seperate votes for my "Rhymes With Lucia" - and it finished up with a grand total of 6.

I knew it could never be traced - because each vote was being placed in a different city and/or country. A very cunning plan indeed and I would have gotten away with it if I had have done it about 10 more times.

LERN2PROXIE