Chicken or the Egg? Which comes first Lyrics or Melody?

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Dan-O from Five-O
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Chicken or the Egg? Which comes first Lyrics or Melody?

Post by Dan-O from Five-O »

I'm interested in how people compose their songs, so I'm wondering when you write what do you generally find comes first the melody or the lyrics? This is speaking to the Song Fight premise mainly because the title is provided so you don't really need to have an inspiration for that. If folks want to tell me a little about what happens outside of this format that would be great too.

I generally find the lyrics and melody coming together at the same time, because I want the lyrics to fit the melody without having to hammer them in place. I usually will come up with a rough melody and then try writing some rough lyrics to it. It's kind of like building something mechanical as one piece starts to dictate what the other piece has to do in order to fit. As those pieces start to become more finished, it starts to dictate how the rest of the song will fit together. All the lyrics for a verse will have the same amount of beats per measure or close and so on. Then I'll move onto the chorus and the middle break if needed and the process goes somewhat the same.

Anyway I'm curious if others will write all of the lyrics first or have the whole melody before writing a word. If this has been covered in the past, I apologise for the redundancy. Maybe someone could just post a link to that prior conversation and I'll do the research from there.
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Re: Chicken or the Egg? Which comes first Lyrics or Melody?

Post by erik »

Dan-O from Five-O wrote:If this has been covered in the past, I apologise for the redundancy.
Apologize for nothing, it may have been covered in the past, but there is no difinitive answer and the pool of people from which answers are solicited is always changing, so the same question will produce different results.
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Post by Caravan Ray »

I usually stick top the same basic process -
Using my song this week as a typical example:

1. Decide on general theme or feel of song: eg. an adolescent song about global terrorism designed to amuse and/or offend

2. Decide on style: eg. simple blues

3. Open beer

4. Write full set of lyrics

5. Fit lyrics to a tune

6. Where lyrics don't fit - edit and shoehorn into tune.

7. Structure song - work out which bit will be chorus, which bit will be bridge etc

8. Edit chorus to be more chorusy

9. Decide on instrumentation eg. keep simple with one guitar - add surf-style lead guitar for no apparent reason

10. Next beer


While lyrics and music do evolve together to a point - personally I would have about 80% of lyrics written before thinking too much about melody (although I often throw all the original lyrics away - then rewrite after the melody is developed)
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Post by joshw »

I always do melody then lyrics. I can't imagine how you'd be able to do the opposite and still come up with a decent melody. I'm sure somebody does it, but I find it a lot easier to have a "mold" to fit lyrics into. The opposite is a recipe for shoehorning. I always cringe when someone brings me a poem to try to set to music.
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Post by Dan-O from Five-O »

joshw wrote:I always do melody then lyrics. I can't imagine how you'd be able to do the opposite and still come up with a decent melody. I'm sure somebody does it, but I find it a lot easier to have a "mold" to fit lyrics into. The opposite is a recipe for shoehorning. I always cringe when someone brings me a poem to try to set to music.
So Josh, when you have your melody is it a complete song musically, or do you do it in parts like I said? E.G. Verses, Chorus, Middle Break.
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Post by j$ »

I have come to understand it was David Byrne who said 'the words are just there to fit the music'. I am the opposite. Shoehorning is great by my book (which is may go some way to explaining why Josh & I are usually at loggerheads over something or the other :) )

Generally I see the title. Think of a phrase, or a rhyme that I like, strum at my guitar until I get something that works for me, then extrapolate. All my songs are written on guitar, then arranged up from there. Sure, this results in as many misses as there are hits. But I've never written a lyric that I wasn't proud of.

Ironically most of what I end up voting for is based on the sound of the music in relation to the words, not advice I follow myself very often. *shrug* I don't think there's a formula. I sure as Hell hope there isn't.
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Post by Caravan Ray »

joshw wrote:I always do melody then lyrics. I can't imagine how you'd be able to do the opposite and still come up with a decent melody. I'm sure somebody does it, but I find it a lot easier to have a "mold" to fit lyrics into. The opposite is a recipe for shoehorning. I always cringe when someone brings me a poem to try to set to music.
I always do lyrics then melody. I can't imagine how you'd be able to do the opposite and still come up with a decent lyric. I'm sure somebody does it, but I find it a lot easier to have a "mold" to fit melody to. The opposite is a recipe for shoehorning. I always cringe when someone brings me a music to try to fit lyrics to.

Looks like there's more than one way to skin a cat! This should be an interesting thread
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Post by erik »

I would say that about 80% of the time, I write the melody and chords first, and the lyrics come afterwards. Maybe about 19% of the time, I come up with a considerable amount of the lyrics at the same time as I come up with the melody, enough to actually shape the song. About 1% of the time, I write the lyrics first, although uuuuuusually this takes the form of me writing a melody, writing lyrics for it, enjoying my lyrics, and somehow forgetting the melody. So then I have these lyrics that I have to write a song for. It happens on occasion.

Personally, I don't find there's any advantage to coming up with lyrics as I write the music as opposed to waiting until the melody is complete to start writing the lyrics. I do see an advantage of both of these methods over lyrics before the melody, and that is when lyrics are written first, there is a greater tendency to have the pacing of the words be more uniform and therefore less interesting. In lyrics-first, rhymes tend to come exactly and only at the end of the lines which tend to be the exact same length, as opposed to more-varied rhyme schemes and line lengths which makes for more natural sounding lyrics. I like a lyric that sounds like something that an actual person would say, and in normal speech our sentences vary in length and form and accent.

I tend to think of lyrics as the clothes and the music as the model. If I know the model's measurements first, I can make the clothes look really good on her. If I already have the clothes made, then I have to find a model that looks good inside them, or barring that, put them on a model where they don't fit and hope for the best.
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Post by Caravan Ray »

15-16 puzzle wrote: I tend to think of lyrics as the clothes and the music as the model
I like to think of my music as a model who's let herself go a bit and can now only get work on nasty German internet porn sites and the lyrics are the various pieces of fruit or household appliances which add interest to the whole scenario
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Post by erik »

Whoa, I think of your stuff the same way.

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Post by Dan-O from Five-O »

Caravan Ray wrote:
15-16 puzzle wrote: I tend to think of lyrics as the clothes and the music as the model
I like to think of my music as a model who's let herself go a bit and can now only get work on nasty German internet porn sites and the lyrics are the various pieces of fruit or household appliances which add interest to the whole scenario
15-16: Your analogy is great and exactly the input I'm looking for. Caravan Ray: your analogy is great and exactly what I'm looking.......when I'm looking for sarcasm, which I usually am so keep it up. (No obvious Viagra references now)
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Post by Bjam »

I write the lyrics then the melody. Or, actually no, I don't. I do 'la-la-la-something about freedom-la-di-dah-new day will come soon-la-la-la' So I suppose I do both at the same time...

However, usually I'm free most at school when I don't have a guitar, so I'll do a brainstorm of phrases and whatnot, then I'll come home, play out some chords, and smush it all together and wrap it in a bow.
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Post by joshw »

Bjam wrote:I write the lyrics then the melody. Or, actually no, I don't. I do 'la-la-la-something about freedom-la-di-dah-new day will come soon-la-la-la' So I suppose I do both at the same time...
That's fairly close to how I do it. When I stumble upon a riff, I roll tape and start mumbling a melody of some sort. Usually it comes right out if I keep my left brain out of the loop. Actually, that reminded me of a blog post I made awhile ago about the process.
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Post by john m »

How it comes to me:

Main chords/riffs > Drums > Bass > Bridge (if applicable) > Solo > Lyrics

Sometimes, I'll try to figure out where I'll throw the title into the song, and maybe have that tiny little lyrical/melodic idea worked out, but full lyrics come dead last (shoehorning lyrics sounds terrible), and are usually rushed a couple before deadline.
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Post by slowRodeo »

ok for songfight. yeah i know ive only been in one. but for songfight i wait for a song title that strikes me as possible to have some sort of story. or meaning. then its usually trying to make a lyric with that. but i write that lyric outloud so i can find the melody. then when i have a basic melody i start writing lyrics. at the end i add music that will go with the melody and lyrics. by the time i finish the lyrics i have the song written musically in my head. if i have some cool music that has been waiting for some subject then i start there. there and work a melody from that.

for non - songfight songs. these i have more than one. its similar but its usually a hook or line that ive had in my head. or a story idea. most of the verses are written from that. then i try to see what kind of melody comes from that for a chorus or bridge. the only problem is that when you always start with the melody or lyrics. your music suffers.

if you ive been jamming for a while and find a great riff or progression and then find melody it will prolly be a more musically diverse song. the problem with this is the melody/ lyric phase ends up being rythem based or perhaps a little stuffed by the limitations of the chords your are playing.

just in my experience. the best way to have good songs in dont get stuck in a formula. mix it up. never say i always start this way. or i always start this way. cause then all your crap will sound the same. it sounds to me like you lack a little inpiration. walk away. come back to it later. go listen to your favorite cd or some new music. i have gone weeks waiting to be inspired. for me leaving it and coming back to it later is the best cure. other like the just plug away.
no cut and dry way to write songs. unless your good charlotte or avril lavigne then you just go to your studio tech and say yeah can you remix the last song we recorded so i can sing these lyrics my manager wrote about how hes misunderstood. then its easy. only thing left to do is practice lipsyncing into your mirror.
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Post by Rabid Garfunkel »

Heh, the flying lizard comes first for me.

Usually there's a hook that pops up in my head after seeing the titles, whether a musical line; a couple of words that stick together particularly nicely; an idea/scene/image/silly situation; or even simply an instrument or two that I want to use. Then that hook becomes a mnemonic for recall for the rest of the song which builds around it.

Not terribly organized or consistent, but that's me in a nutshell. :twisted:
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Post by Adam! »

I look at all the titles the day they are posted and I despair. I spend all week trying to come up with a sarcastic take on the title. On Thursday or Friday the first and last lines of the chorus will pop into my head. I spend all weekend working on a song to fit those two lines to, but I end up just tweaking how my snare drum sounds or how much reverb I have on the finger snaps until Sunday morning. Then I give up on tweaking the tiny things and start writing the song, and I'll finish it Sunday afternoon/night. Then I burn it on a CD and drive around in my car until I have a vague melody/rhythm figured out. I set up my mic and write/record the lyrics one stanza at a time. Once this is done I mix all night, send it in minutes before the deadline, and then go to school. I usually don't finish the song.

This brutal approach to songwriting gives me constant writer’s block and leaves me frustrated. I don't recommend it.
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Mine are more like bread

Post by Mostess »

Model and clothes are too seperate for me. In my mind, it's more like bread, where the music is the flour, water, and yeast; words are the sugar, milk, potato flakes, oatmeal, rasins, etc. etc. You only need the former, but without the latter it's not going to be anyone's favorite loaf. And like bread, it all gets mixed together at the same time to rise and bake.

I hate writing words, but a song melody only works if it is sung with vowels and consonants that bring out the feeling. I couldn't care less what they mean. I write gibberish like "So Kind Stacey" and "Upcoming Downtime" that sounds like a story, but there actually is none.

I look at the title(s) when they are posted. Then, in the shower, walking the dog, and walking to/from work I experiment with hooks involving the title. Ususally a couple of them get stuck in my head. If one is still there the next day, I start trying to write a chorus in my head; again music and words (as sounds). And again, I don't worry if the words don't make any sense. Once I have a fun chorus, I work on verses the same way. I barely even think about verse words unless there are good places for internal rhymes or alliteration.

I never write all the words on a piece of paper until I'm about to record. There are always holes in my framework---phrases I have no words for. I write them backwards; write a last line of a verse that has some bite or punch to it, then try to "justify" it by making the previous line set it up. My second to last line in a verse is usually a horribly forced rhyme, but the last line is always strong. And meaning be damned; I let the listener do the work of figuring out what the heck the singer is singing about.

I never record anything until I know how the whole song goes. Any last minute changes are always to the lyrics.
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Post by Leaf »

I am very random in my approach. Sometimes, I'll just sitdown, and drum until I get a groove I like, and I'm humming a melody or bass line. Sometimes, I'll be playing guitar, and a riff will pop out, sometimes the lyrics come first, sometimes the bass... very random. I like working this way, because I find the only thing that gets me stuck is the lack of time available to work on things! This works well for me, I suppose, because I'm usually the one playing everything, so I can hear in my head what is going on...I have no favourite method either, it's just where ever I start. I always track everything, then I try to re-track in the same order: drums, bass, guitars, vocals, leads. That way I can get a real "band" action/reaction vibe going on. I think it works.
In fact, on the few songfight songs I 've done, every single one was started differently....
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Post by Bell Green »

I start with the title. Try and think of a subject. What does it mean? What could it mean? Is it at the end of the chorus or at the beginning? How many syllables are there? But these are all like the thoughts before you go to sleep.

Then I get into doing something else, like doing the hoovering or the washing up and start humming a tune - a new tune. The portal begins to open and the song is coming through. I hear it and I sing it. It's like someone is teaching me the song. A few lines of the chorus and then all goes silent. What happened? Now I have to phone back. I pick up the guitar and just play the melody. Which mode was that, which key? Oh no, almost lost it. Grab my phone and sing it. Phew, just in case. Someone at the door. Now I've forgotten it. Listen to the recording - off I go again.

I know the key now and I know all the chords in that key, this song can't get away now. I get a piece of paper and a pen. Write the title at the top. Work out the chords for the chorus. I sing and I play. Start getting the tempo and rhythm. Keep playing till it's dark. The mrs comes home from work. Better stop.

Next day. Is it still there? Yes, it's coming back. I listen in my head. Have to go to work, no time to play, just listen in my head. I can hear the arrangement now, the verses, the other instruments and the melodies. I just keep listening and singing along. I'm riding my bike, so no-one can hear me, except when I stop at the lights. More recordings into my phone. Last week I stopped on Putney Bridge to record a few riffs.

Get home and get that piece of paper out again. Write the other bits - verses, bridges, middle eights etc, as I heard during the day. Write the structure. Now I try and play the song all the way through. I am still being taught. There's only a week, better learn fast. It's getting late, better do rough take and see what I think in the morning.

I have a day off. Now let's listen to that again. Hmmm. Better try playing to a click track. That sounds better. Record each bit as tight as I can. Use software to stitch the bits together. Sing along. Add drums, bass, and whatever else.

Take a break. Mix, listen, mix, listen, mix, listen. Master, send. It's like that.
so . . . when was the last time you backed up?
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Post by Bell Green »

To answer the question - melody first.
so . . . when was the last time you backed up?
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