Stuck in a Box!!!

[wadewalbrun]

Hi, I could really use some advice and/or tips on recording. I am quite new at it, and all my recordings sound boxy, in both the vocals and the instruments (acoustic/electric guitar). I have done a bit of online research about how to EQ it out, and I can hear a degree of success, but boxiness prevails. Perhaps my initial recording is shit to begin with and I am beating my head against the wall hoping for better results. I currently don't have any noise dampening material on the wall, but plan to get some. I'm sure that will help somewhat. Is that the biggest step? What other things am I missing here?

I currently own a Shure SM86 mic (for vocals) and a M Audio M Track audio interface. I use Mixcraft software, and plug my acoustic guitar and electric guitar into the M Track. I don't own an amp.

Any and all feedback is greatly appreciated.

thanks,
Wade
(Burnzi)

[Paco Del Stinko]

Does that microphone work on guitar? Try it, what the hell. If you can mic it and go direct, try mixing the two levels to make a good sound. Nothing to lose, you'll fail, succeed, learn.

For starters, learn to use what you have, making the best of what's available to you. Practice good positioning at the mic and positoning the mic in different spots in the room. Some areas might be more dead, some more lively. To paraphrase Ken: Shit in, shit out. Meaning something like, if you make a shitty recording, you'll have a shitty recording. The old "I can fix it in the mix" rarely holds true, I believe. Practice getting the best out of your presently available resources.

Ken, Lunkhead, JB, and others can, and probably will, point you in more specific directions. I guess that I'm just trying to play motivator. There's a lot to learn, so do it piece at a time. But stick with it, it'll come.

[Billy's Little Trip]

It would be helpful if you had a link to your "boxy" recording. Mainly because your boxy and my boxy can be two different things. If I hear a clip, I can generally hear the problem. If not, I can toss it on my DAW to give it some tweak-a-roni and find the problem that way.

[Kevin Mellows]

I'm no expert, but I can tell you "boxiness" is not an EQ problem. It's the way the sound is reflecting off your walls, and you can't just "carve it out" with an EQ plugin.

You see microphones aren't very smart. Us humans have brains that allow us to filter out extraneous noises and focus on the one thing we're listening to. A microphone can't do that, and it will hear eveything in a room including noise bouncing off the walls.

I think some dampening material should help, but I don't know how you should set it up. But ideally, if you can dampen the room sound in your recording environment, you can then add some nice reverb in the mixing phase.

-Kevin

[wadewalbrun]

It would be helpful if you had a link to your "boxy" recording. Mainly because your boxy and my boxy can be two different things. If I hear a clip, I can generally hear the problem. If not, I can toss it on my DAW to give it some tweak-a-roni and find the problem that way.

Many thanks!! My last two Songfight songs, Suitcase and The Lurker are prime examples. It seems when I listen to songs by others their music sounds more airy and present, while mine seems filtered or behind a veil to me.

I'm no expert, but I can tell you "boxiness" is not an EQ problem. It's the way the sound is reflecting off your walls, and you can't just "carve it out" with an EQ plugin.

You see microphones aren't very smart. Us humans have brains that allow us to filter out extraneous noises and focus on the one thing we're listening to. A microphone can't do that, and it will hear eveything in a room including noise bouncing off the walls.

I think some dampening material should help, but I don't know how you should set it up. But ideally, if you can dampen the room sound in your recording environment, you can then add some nice reverb in the mixing phase.

-Kevin

Thanks Kevin!

[Lunkhead]

Until you get sound treatment for your room, you could try a comforter or something like that hanging behind you. I haven't tried it yet but folks say it can be pretty effective for a cheap/free simple solution (not a real substitute for room treatment, though).

I agree with Paco about trying to mic the acoustic guitar. Point the mic straight at the neck around the twelfth fret, with the mic about 6-12" away from the guitar. If it's too boomy/bassy you can pull the mic back and/or move it more toward the head of the guitar. (If it's not boomy/bassy enough you can move it closer and/or move it toward the body of the guitar). Recording mic and direct can also give you more options, although, if you're not very experienced yet, more options isn't necessarily better for you. It can sometimes just mean more opportunities for doing things wrong.

How are you recording your vocals? Generally a good setup is to have the mic on a clip on a stand, or maybe even a shock mount. You generally want to have something in between your mouth and the mic to deflect air when you make p and b sounds, like a pop screen or wind filter or even just a sock on your mic if you're low budget. Then when you sing you generally want to sing straight into the mic with your mouth 6-12" from the mic, closer for more bass and less room noise, farther away for less bass and more room noise. You shouldn't really need to EQ your vocals all that much, other than to put a hi-pass filter on them to cut real low frequencies, like something in the 100-200Hz range. Make sure to run your vox through a compressor.

Are you putting reverb on your tracks? It could be your reverb settings, too.

[roymond]

These...



plus these...



...work wonders when combined.

[Paco Del Stinko]

I have a pretty decent microphone, on a shockmount. I do my vocals standing in front of the mic 'cos, well, isn't it better to stand? I then use two mic stands with a penny whistle (!) between their clips to hold a moving blanket between them. I position it to engulf much of the microphone. This makes a dry, flat, environment for the microphoe. Like Lunk says, I drop off some bottom end, barely notch a couple of frequencies up or down, and call it a day. Only problem is, you can hear my voice well when it's done.

I take it down every time because the room is small and also it's a very tall affair. I could come into the room and think there was a creepy monk in there and scare myself. I'll post a picture tomorrow.

Someone here, years ago, posted pictures of a fully enclosed blanket tent or something that they recorded in. Was it Puce? It was nutty looking, but I'm sure very effective.

[jb]

http://songfight.org/artistpage.php?key=burnzi

[roymond]

Someone here, years ago, posted pictures of a fully enclosed blanket tent or something that they recorded in. Was it Puce? It was nutty looking, but I'm sure very effective.

I posted some like that. I had a three-section couch and would stand two pillows up and put one across the top to make a recording box.

On a related note about pictures used on the boards...is there a way to create a gallery of all photos posted here?

[wadewalbrun]

Until you get sound treatment for your room, you could try a comforter or something like that hanging behind you. I haven't tried it yet but folks say it can be pretty effective for a cheap/free simple solution (not a real substitute for room treatment, though).

I agree with Paco about trying to mic the acoustic guitar. Point the mic straight at the neck around the twelfth fret, with the mic about 6-12" away from the guitar. If it's too boomy/bassy you can pull the mic back and/or move it more toward the head of the guitar. (If it's not boomy/bassy enough you can move it closer and/or move it toward the body of the guitar). Recording mic and direct can also give you more options, although, if you're not very experienced yet, more options isn't necessarily better for you. It can sometimes just mean more opportunities for doing things wrong.

How are you recording your vocals? Generally a good setup is to have the mic on a clip on a stand, or maybe even a shock mount. You generally want to have something in between your mouth and the mic to deflect air when you make p and b sounds, like a pop screen or wind filter or even just a sock on your mic if you're low budget. Then when you sing you generally want to sing straight into the mic with your mouth 6-12" from the mic, closer for more bass and less room noise, farther away for less bass and more room noise. You shouldn't really need to EQ your vocals all that much, other than to put a hi-pass filter on them to cut real low frequencies, like something in the 100-200Hz range. Make sure to run your vox through a compressor.

Are you putting reverb on your tracks? It could be your reverb settings, too.

Thanks for the comments!! I'll try the blankets. I think I can manage that one. I will also try to mic the acoustic. Hey, it couldn't hurt.

I have been recording vocals with my mic on a stand, without a pop screen. I have one, but have been opting not to use it because I wasn't happy with the "thin" sound I was getting. I typically am about an inch from the mic while recording and seem to get a better bass response. Perhaps, it is cleaner and less noisy with the pop screen? Is there generally some sort of trade off or happy medium to find, clean vs. a slightly fuller sound?

I have been putting a light reverb in both vocals and guitar. Is it your experience to use a bit more to help them sit in the space better?

Wade

[wadewalbrun]

I have a pretty decent microphone, on a shockmount. I do my vocals standing in front of the mic 'cos, well, isn't it better to stand? I then use two mic stands with a penny whistle (!) between their clips to hold a moving blanket between them. I position it to engulf much of the microphone. This makes a dry, flat, environment for the microphoe. Like Lunk says, I drop off some bottom end, barely notch a couple of frequencies up or down, and call it a day. Only problem is, you can hear my voice well when it's done.

I take it down every time because the room is small and also it's a very tall affair. I could come into the room and think there was a creepy monk in there and scare myself. I'll post a picture tomorrow.

Someone here, years ago, posted pictures of a fully enclosed blanket tent or something that they recorded in. Was it Puce? It was nutty looking, but I'm sure very effective.

Yea, my room is fairly small too, but I may be able to construct some sort of recording booth on a temporary basis when I record. Good idea. Thanks!

[jb]

Someone here, years ago, posted pictures of a fully enclosed blanket tent or something that they recorded in. Was it Puce? It was nutty looking, but I'm sure very effective.

I posted some like that. I had a three-section couch and would stand two pillows up and put one across the top to make a recording box.

On a related note about pictures used on the boards...is there a way to create a gallery of all photos posted here?

No, not out of the box as far as I know. It would have to be a PHPBB mod.

[jb]

I have a pretty decent microphone, on a shockmount. I do my vocals standing in front of the mic 'cos, well, isn't it better to stand? I then use two mic stands with a penny whistle (!) between their clips to hold a moving blanket between them. I position it to engulf much of the microphone. This makes a dry, flat, environment for the microphoe. Like Lunk says, I drop off some bottom end, barely notch a couple of frequencies up or down, and call it a day. Only problem is, you can hear my voice well when it's done.

I take it down every time because the room is small and also it's a very tall affair. I could come into the room and think there was a creepy monk in there and scare myself. I'll post a picture tomorrow.

Someone here, years ago, posted pictures of a fully enclosed blanket tent or something that they recorded in. Was it Puce? It was nutty looking, but I'm sure very effective.

Yea, my room is fairly small too, but I may be able to construct some sort of recording booth on a temporary basis when I record. Good idea. Thanks!

With an SM86 and that M Audio box, you should be able to achieve good recordings. So it's something else than your equipment.

Put the pop screen an inch from the mic. It won't muffle the sound. Put your face right up to the pop screen. It will help you make your singing more consistently recorded by the microphone, because you're not getting closer and farther away etc.

You can put the pop screen even closer if you want. Do some experimentation. The closer you are, the more "proximity effect" you get-- that is what makes you get more low end in the recording. It also reduces room noise.

Definitely try using the mic on that guitar. Direct-in acoustic seems almost always to sound crappy. You don't get the resonance of the body because all of your sound is just coming through your transducer pickup. (I assume you don't have a microphone-style pickup in your guitar.)

[wadewalbrun]

JB - Thanks for the advice.

With regard to an electric guitar, is recording off an amp significantly better than plugging into the computer? I'm not all that happy with the sound directly plugging into the computer. Do you record electric guitar off an amp and then use the amp simulations and effects in your DAW?

Wade

[Lunkhead]

Amp simulators have come a long way now, and some of them are pretty hard to distinguish from real amped guitar, especially if you're using distortion. Even if they don't sound that good, they sound plenty good enough for Song Fight, where we're all working under crazy time constraints. I just have the one built in to Cubase, which isn't as good as the one in e.g. GarageBand/Logic, but I used it a bit for some Nur Ein entries because I felt like it was good enough. So I think in terms of improving your overall sound you're probably better off focusing on your vocals and your acoustic.

[JonPorobil]

Amp simulators have come a long way now, and some of them are pretty hard to distinguish from real amped guitar, especially if you're using distortion. Even if they don't sound that good, they sound plenty good enough for Song Fight, where we're all working under crazy time constraints. I just have the one built in to Cubase, which isn't as good as the one in e.g. GarageBand/Logic, but I used it a bit for some Nur Ein entries because I felt like it was good enough. So I think in terms of improving your overall sound you're probably better off focusing on your vocals and your acoustic.

My "The Lurker" also uses the amp simulator that comes with Cubase. Nobody has yet commented on the guitar sound in that song, but I thought it sounded pretty darn good, considering I'm not really a guitar guy.

[roymond]

I have never mic'd an amp on any of my productions.

[Kevin Mellows]

I say guitar sims are awesome! Mainly because there's no way I would be able to get away with cranking a real amp in my apartment, but the best part about sims is how flexible they are. If you record with one amp that sounds good at the time, but need to switch the head or add a distortion pedal, bam there you have it. And you didn't have to re-record. From a production perspective (especially with how quickly we need to make songs for SF) sims are a huge time saver.

I use Guitar Rig 5 and it has everything you could possibly need. Something I've learned about using sims is that you're much better off trying to build your own rigs from scratch rather than using the stock rigs. The reason for this I think has to do with the stock rigs being designed to sound amazing on their own (to show off the software) rather than being the kind of tone you would get from a typical recording session. A lot of guitar parts in a good mix sound great, but have qualities that you would not want if you were soloing the guitar.

The biggest thing though (as always) is your playing. I try to make my guitar parts sound great, but I am limited in what and how I can play the instrument. But I truly think, from a technical standpoint, most of us would have a hard time distinguishing a well made tone from being analog or digital.

-Kevin

[wadewalbrun]

Thank you Lunkhead, Jon, Roymond, and Kevin for the amp simulator thoughts and advice. You've answer a number of questions I've had about them. I guess I'll stick with the simulated amps, and find a way to make them sound okay.

When you use a simulated amp are you typically adding much in the way of effects to the sound? Added compression, or reverb, or delay? And are you EQing the guitar? Or just straight up?

Kevin, I have looked at Guitar Rig myself and was intrigued. I'm curious if you consider them on par with other amp simulators, or better and definitely worth the extra dollars. Some free amp simulator plugins I have downloaded sounded worse than the native ones in Mixcraft, like they were underwater, so I'm a bit weary.

This has been really helpful so far. Many thanks to all who have enlightened me.

[Lunkhead]

I've never been a fan of effects on guitar other than the basics: distortion, delay, reverb, tremolo. I guess that's pretty much it. I don't like phaser, flanger, and chorus, and don't care much either for less common stuff like whammy. Wah is alright if used sparingly, maybe.

So when I'm using an amp simulator I generally set things up the same way I would if I were using a real amp, and keep it simple. I actually do use presets to save time, since saving time is a big reason why I'm using a sim to begin with. But I don't use ones with lots of effects. So I'll set the simulator as the first effect on the guitar track, get a simple simulated rig going (maybe distortion, maybe delay, maybe EQ on the amp, maybe reverb) but then I still do also put on the same stuff I would put on a mic'd track, specifically a compressor, and an EQ that mostly removes low frequencies and maybe cuts a bit to make room for vocals, maybe lowers the really high stuff.

[jast]

I use amp sims, too, except they're outside my DAW. So, obviously I never EQ the raw guitar aside from what I can do with the knobs on the guitar and the amp sim. I do almost always EQ what comes out of the amp sim, though, especially when I have bass and crunchy distorted guitar competing for room in the soundscape.

Regarding effects: only ever use effects if you know you need them to achieve the sound you want (to find out what sounds there are, set aside some time for experimenting with effects like there's no tomorrow). There are exceptions, of course...

1. Reverb can be used not only for "make this sound huge" type things, but also room sound. I do this on almost all of my songs. The trick is to use just a little bit less reverb than what it takes to notice that there's any reverb when listening casually. The other part of the trick is to use a decent reverb. Many reverbs have a rather bright, harsh sound that doesn't sound nice most of the time. If you can't find an awesome-sounding reverb, consider pulling just the reverb part through a low-pass filter.

2. Compression can be used so that it drastically changes the shape of the sound, or as a tool for managing dynamics. As a general rule, most rather good performances don't need much compression at all. Consequently I usually use compression with a fairly low ratio (~1:2) on most things, though I often make an exception for bass or styles that have a tendency to use tons of compression.
By the way, I believe we have a bunch of threads on how compressors work and how to make them do what you want.

As has been said before, though, the most important thing is how you play. I do a half-decent job, I suppose, and I won't magically sound like a superstar just because I spend a few grand on amps and who knows what else.