It Might Get Loud

Ask questions and get answers about how to make music in any particular way. Hardware or songwriting or whatever.
User avatar
wadewalbrun
Ain't Talkin' 'Bout Love
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:40 pm
Instruments: Guitar
Recording Method: Mixcraft, M Audio M track, hope and a prayer
Submitting as: Burnzi
Location: Rhode Island

It Might Get Loud

Post by wadewalbrun »

Loudness wars abound.

How are you achieving your general loudness in your songs? What tools are you using to get loud? I know you can get a certain amount of loudness in mixing by optimizing EQ and Compression and then adding gain, but is there anything else I should be looking for, or thinking about? In mastering I know about also adding a Master Limiter, but is there something else that I'm missing? There seems to be a million tools. Are you using a Master Limiter in the mixing phase also, or just mastering? Conceptually, are you thinking more about getting the general sound and balance right in mixing, and getting the loudness in mastering?

Your comments and suggestions are welcome.

p.s - Love the movie, It Might Get Loud!
It's in the hole! It's in the hole!!
User avatar
jast
Ice Cream Man
Posts: 1325
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:03 pm
Instruments: Vocals, guitar
Recording Method: Cubase, Steinberg UR44
Submitting as: Jan Krueger
Pronouns: .
Location: near Aachen, Germany
Contact:

Re: It Might Get Loud

Post by jast »

Master limiting doesn't magically louderize, at least not without butchering the output[1]. I find myself using it less and less. In my opinion you're much better off using volume envelopes and such if you have particularly quiet sections that need to be more strongly acquainted to the average level of your song, but even that I wouldn't overdo. In my song for the upcoming fight "Harsh Light of Day" I did a lot of limiting at first and then gradually stripped away all of it because it simply sounded like poo. This is now completely unlouderized (except for a 2:1 compressor on the lead vocals -- comparably gentle...).

My current opinion is that you're only hurting your music if you join the loudness war. Louderizing basically means taking the dynamics out of your song. Accidental dynamics should go away, of course, but deliberate ones should stay. A limiter plugin can't tell the two apart, hence the recommendation to make your own automation curves. So, with that said, the most effective ways to make it sound louder and still not have all the life squeezed out of it:

- It's not really that much about increasing the levels. If you make an arrangement that doesn't have everything playing at once in the same parts of the spectrum, you don't have to cut anything in the first place. Two distorted guitars playing different things? Tricky... Distorted guitar and clean guitar? Much more doable. One instrument on beat, one off beat? We're on to something here...
- An interesting alternative to making it louder is making it sound louder. Psychoacoustics, basically. Bit of theory: human hearing is more sensitive to some parts of the spectrum than others. Cranking up some parts of the spectrum has much less of a noticeable effect than others. So, you can make things seem louder by applying EQ or multi-band compression, without altering the total sound pressure level. Often a part of that is attenuating the low end (we're a lot less sensitive to that than mid highs). I'm just mentioning this, I don't really do it myself. Well, I do often cut the low end, but that's mainly for increasing clarity.

[1] Mastering engineers may be a lot better at this than me, of course. I don't suppose you're a mastering engineer?
User avatar
wadewalbrun
Ain't Talkin' 'Bout Love
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:40 pm
Instruments: Guitar
Recording Method: Mixcraft, M Audio M track, hope and a prayer
Submitting as: Burnzi
Location: Rhode Island

Re: It Might Get Loud

Post by wadewalbrun »

Jast - Thanks! I agree with you fundamentally, on the loudness war. Unfortunately, it does seems that lower volume songs are subconsciously considered less energetic, regardless of the mix.

Thanks for the Master Limiter commentary, and mixing! I used the Master Limiter a bunch on Harsh Light of Day, but after submitting the song I have been dissecting my mix, trying to figure out a better sound, and conclude that I like it better with minimal, or no Master Limiter. This then forces me to compress more, causing shitty sound, or just turn the volume down (again, the less energetic thing). I'm really just experimenting at this point to find some optimal methodology. Perhaps there is a happy medium somewhere? I'm pretty new at this, and trying to get up to speed on this.
It's in the hole! It's in the hole!!
User avatar
Billy's Little Trip
Odie
Posts: 12090
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:56 pm
Instruments: Guitar, Bass, Vocals, Drums, Skin Flute
Recording Method: analog to digital via Presonus FireBox, Cubase and a porn machine
Submitting as: Billy's Little Trip, Billy and the Psychotics
Location: Cali fucking ornia

Re: It Might Get Loud

Post by Billy's Little Trip »

I struggled with the whole loudness thing for a long time. I finally found the right way to get what I'm aiming for without destroying my dynamics.

I used to either end up chopping off the peaks with a limiter, which made the mix sound lifeless or push it in the red and clip. I tried everything I could think of, reading and watching tutorials, etc. For some reason I wasn't grasping the real solutions and kept using more and more and it just got worse.

So I decided to strip it all down and rebuild my entire work flow based on professional engineering tips and one thing they often recommend, which is comparing and trying to achieve the mix and production of one of your favorite CDs/songs that is professionally mixed. I'd never tried that before, so I gave it a shot. It was a breakthrough for me. I realized I was in fact over doing everything in my workflow.

So I started using methods, like subtractive EQ. That turned out to be a huge success. Things like dropping off from 20hz down on every track that's not the bass guitar or kick drum. That alone opened up MILES of head room. Who knew that a snare drum carried so much low hz that the ear can't even hear, yet it's there taking up space.

Also instead of raising the EQ to get a frequency up, I started lowering the frequency on both sides of the frequency that I wanted to shine on a track. Again, opened up more space.

Carving frequencies on my bass guitar and kick tracks so they weren't fighting each other for bottom. Let's say that on the song you are working on, the bass guitar sweet spot is around 80hz in it bottom freq. Carving is to lower the kick drum maybe 2db at 80hz, then raise the bass guitar 2db at 80hz. That instantly separates them in that range. But you also need to do the same for the kick. Let's say the kicks sweet spot in the bottom is 120hz. Lower the bass guitar 2db 120hz and raise the kick 2db at 120 hz. The hz and db here are for example. Every mix has to be mixed per song and by ear.

Just those basic things allowed me to raise my overall volume 5 or 6 db without chopping off peaks from my snare hits, etc. So now I can have full dynamic range with a snappy snare and punchy kick and still raise the volume.

I also do things, like have a second kick drum track that I pull down everything on the EQ and leave only the sweet spot of the batter hitting the skin. It sounds like a tick tick sound by it's self. But when you start pushing the fader up in the mix with the other kick track, all of a sudden you can hear the kick. The best part is that you didn't add any low freq because you pulled down everything except the sweet spot in the high freq. You didn't even raise the sweet spot, just left it were it is. You'll find this trick it great for all of your low freq instruments that you are trying to make them stand out more. kick batter, bass string twang, floor toms hits. What good is a thud sound without the hit of the stick that made the thud sound?

Anyway, this went on longer than I planned. I was just going to just say that I like boobs. But then I got all lawn mower man.
User avatar
jast
Ice Cream Man
Posts: 1325
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:03 pm
Instruments: Vocals, guitar
Recording Method: Cubase, Steinberg UR44
Submitting as: Jan Krueger
Pronouns: .
Location: near Aachen, Germany
Contact:

Re: It Might Get Loud

Post by jast »

User avatar
Billy's Little Trip
Odie
Posts: 12090
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:56 pm
Instruments: Guitar, Bass, Vocals, Drums, Skin Flute
Recording Method: analog to digital via Presonus FireBox, Cubase and a porn machine
Submitting as: Billy's Little Trip, Billy and the Psychotics
Location: Cali fucking ornia

Re: It Might Get Loud

Post by Billy's Little Trip »

My way of thinking is this.
1. If I'm killing the dynamics of my mix with volume, it's too loud.
2. If I can raise my volume and stop before I lose any of my dynamics, that's the perfect loudness.
User avatar
wadewalbrun
Ain't Talkin' 'Bout Love
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:40 pm
Instruments: Guitar
Recording Method: Mixcraft, M Audio M track, hope and a prayer
Submitting as: Burnzi
Location: Rhode Island

Re: It Might Get Loud

Post by wadewalbrun »

Jast and BLT - Many thanks for the advise!! I spent some time last night and this morning remixing, getting rid of the Master Limiter, reducing compression where it seemed excessive and carving out space (as suggested) for each part in the mix. Wow, what a difference! It's much clearer and even a bit louder, than my previous effort with Harsh Light of Day, even without any Mastering!! Yes, louder is not necessarily the goal here, the clarity is, but the byproduct of alittle bit louder doesn't hurt, and it's not excessive IMHO. Thanks again!!!!
It's in the hole! It's in the hole!!
User avatar
jast
Ice Cream Man
Posts: 1325
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:03 pm
Instruments: Vocals, guitar
Recording Method: Cubase, Steinberg UR44
Submitting as: Jan Krueger
Pronouns: .
Location: near Aachen, Germany
Contact:

Re: It Might Get Loud

Post by jast »

A tip on doing this kind of stuff, especially when you start out: when you've got something that seems like it's a real improvement, take a break and then compare it against a commercial release in a similar genre. This can help expose misjudgements due to habituation: as you keep tweaking parameters bit by bit, you are much less likely to notice the scope of the overall change you've made, much like when you cook live frogs slowly, they never notice.

Disclaimer: I haven't actually tried the thing with the frog.
User avatar
Billy's Little Trip
Odie
Posts: 12090
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:56 pm
Instruments: Guitar, Bass, Vocals, Drums, Skin Flute
Recording Method: analog to digital via Presonus FireBox, Cubase and a porn machine
Submitting as: Billy's Little Trip, Billy and the Psychotics
Location: Cali fucking ornia

Re: It Might Get Loud

Post by Billy's Little Trip »

jast wrote:when you cook live frogs slowly, they never notice.

Disclaimer: I haven't actually tried the thing with the frog.
Your avatar would suggest otherwise. :?
User avatar
jast
Ice Cream Man
Posts: 1325
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:03 pm
Instruments: Vocals, guitar
Recording Method: Cubase, Steinberg UR44
Submitting as: Jan Krueger
Pronouns: .
Location: near Aachen, Germany
Contact:

Re: It Might Get Loud

Post by jast »

My avatar is its own person. At some point it separated from me and it's now leading a successful life as a serial-killer-for-the-fun-of-it. I sure am glad that that's not me...
User avatar
fluffy
Eruption
Posts: 11028
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 10:56 am
Instruments: sometimes
Recording Method: Logic Pro X
Submitting as: Sockpuppet
Pronouns: she/they
Location: Seattle-ish
Contact:

Re: It Might Get Loud

Post by fluffy »

The way I master for loudness/EQ/etc. is I find a song that I like that I want to match (ideally one in a different key and tempo), and then I play it at the same time that I play my track. Then I adjust the EQ and limiting until I can't hear one over the other. It feels like cheating.

Also, I disagree with Jast and BLT on limiting - an adaptive limiter (like the one in Logic) is your friend when used right. When adjusting for loudness, what I do is let the whole song play through in order to get the peak value, then I set the input gain on the limiter to give that peak 3dB or so of headroom (so if peak is +1dB I make it -4dB), then I adjust the output gain by however much is needed to make it sound just as loud as whatever Radiohead song I chose. This gives you a gentle loudness boost without killing your dynamics entirely and without clipping your peaks. (You can also decrease the dynamics further by lowering the input gain and increasing the output gain even more; for example, giving it 6dB of headroom and then boosting by 9dB.)
User avatar
wadewalbrun
Ain't Talkin' 'Bout Love
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:40 pm
Instruments: Guitar
Recording Method: Mixcraft, M Audio M track, hope and a prayer
Submitting as: Burnzi
Location: Rhode Island

Re: It Might Get Loud

Post by wadewalbrun »

Thanks Fluffy! I appreciate the advice. I will try that.
It's in the hole! It's in the hole!!
User avatar
Lunkhead
You're No Good
Posts: 8104
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:14 pm
Instruments: many
Recording Method: cubase/mac/tascam4x4
Submitting as: Berkeley Social Scene, Merisan, Tiny Robots
Pronouns: he/him
Location: Berkeley, CA
Contact:

Re: It Might Get Loud

Post by Lunkhead »

I don't use a limiter, per se, I use Cubase's default maximizer, which is basically designed to make stuff "sound" louder by combining limiting and automatic gain increase. You don't have to dial in the balance of gain boost and limiting yourself, it does it for you based on how loud you want things to sound. I usually crank it to 40 out of 100, on the loudness setting. This usually gets my tracks up to par with most people here, other than people like Ken, Manhattan Glutton, etc. :P
User avatar
Billy's Little Trip
Odie
Posts: 12090
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:56 pm
Instruments: Guitar, Bass, Vocals, Drums, Skin Flute
Recording Method: analog to digital via Presonus FireBox, Cubase and a porn machine
Submitting as: Billy's Little Trip, Billy and the Psychotics
Location: Cali fucking ornia

Re: It Might Get Loud

Post by Billy's Little Trip »

fluffy wrote:Also, I disagree with Jast and BLT on limiting
Reading what I said, I see how you think I don't use a limiter, because I started out by saying that "I used to use a limiter" and chop off my peaks leaving the mix lifeless. That's back when I ran a very hot limiter to maximize volume. I do use gain and limiting on my final master track, just very little to the point it doesn't take away from the overall dynamics.
I got caught up in the mixing techniques to allow more gain and less limiting by eliminating unnecessary frequencies and creating head room.
User avatar
wadewalbrun
Ain't Talkin' 'Bout Love
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:40 pm
Instruments: Guitar
Recording Method: Mixcraft, M Audio M track, hope and a prayer
Submitting as: Burnzi
Location: Rhode Island

Re: It Might Get Loud

Post by wadewalbrun »

BLT - Yea, I noticed that too, when I tried what you suggested. While I eliminated it from the mixing phase, I found a little Limiter in the mastering was kinda useful to contain things. Still, it is a far cry from what I was doing. And it sounds better too IMHO.
It's in the hole! It's in the hole!!
User avatar
fluffy
Eruption
Posts: 11028
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 10:56 am
Instruments: sometimes
Recording Method: Logic Pro X
Submitting as: Sockpuppet
Pronouns: she/they
Location: Seattle-ish
Contact:

Re: It Might Get Loud

Post by fluffy »

Oh, yeah, volume maximizing is bullshit and never works right at all. Fuck that shit. The only reason to do it is to win the loudness war and I'd rather be a conscientious objector.
User avatar
jast
Ice Cream Man
Posts: 1325
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:03 pm
Instruments: Vocals, guitar
Recording Method: Cubase, Steinberg UR44
Submitting as: Jan Krueger
Pronouns: .
Location: near Aachen, Germany
Contact:

Re: It Might Get Loud

Post by jast »

fluffy wrote:Also, I disagree with Jast and BLT on limiting
Hey, weren't you the one who likes to complain about proper use of (non-)caps? ;)

I have nothing against limiting per sé, but I think it tends to be overused (volume maximization). In addition, all the limiters I have available that used to sound transparent to me no longer do, so I don't use them anymore. I don't really have anything against transients clipping, by the way... often it fits into the kind of mix I'm going for, and in most cases if only transients clip, the clipping isn't so strong in the first place. Non-transients clipping is a different story, of course.

PS. my favourite anti-volmax video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ
User avatar
Billy's Little Trip
Odie
Posts: 12090
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:56 pm
Instruments: Guitar, Bass, Vocals, Drums, Skin Flute
Recording Method: analog to digital via Presonus FireBox, Cubase and a porn machine
Submitting as: Billy's Little Trip, Billy and the Psychotics
Location: Cali fucking ornia

Re: It Might Get Loud

Post by Billy's Little Trip »

jast wrote:PS. my favourite anti-volmax video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ
Back when I first saw this video example, it woke me up as to how volume maximizing ruins everything I've worked so hard to achieve in my mix. In fact, still to this day, that horrible sound of the snare after the volume maximizing in this vid, still resonates in my head. When I start pushing one of my harder rockier songs too hard and hear that horrible snare sound, I know I've gone way too far. lol.

I probably get a bit louder than necessary in the mastering of my songs I enter here on SF to stay up to the field of entries. But when I do push my final volume up, I'm using the "full dynamics" setting so it pushes the mix equally up only to the highest peak. It doesn't raise the lower parts of the mix up to meet the highest peaks.

When I listen to some of my earlier submissions here at SF, I cringe. It's been a lot of experimenting over the past 5'ish years. I've pretty much got a good solid workflow now that really has only been for the last year or two. I'm still trying new techniques to learn anything and everything I can, of course. But at this point, I'm very comfortable with my process and my tools at hand.
User avatar
wadewalbrun
Ain't Talkin' 'Bout Love
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:40 pm
Instruments: Guitar
Recording Method: Mixcraft, M Audio M track, hope and a prayer
Submitting as: Burnzi
Location: Rhode Island

Re: It Might Get Loud

Post by wadewalbrun »

jast - Yea, that anti-volmax video really strikes me, and is very effective. I totally see it. My mixing has a ways to go and it seems like I'm really scrambling to assimilate a lot of information in a very short time, but things like this stand out in my mind and are well worth remembering. Many thanks!!
It's in the hole! It's in the hole!!
User avatar
fluffy
Eruption
Posts: 11028
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 10:56 am
Instruments: sometimes
Recording Method: Logic Pro X
Submitting as: Sockpuppet
Pronouns: she/they
Location: Seattle-ish
Contact:

Re: It Might Get Loud

Post by fluffy »

Okay, it just sounded like you were both saying you never use limiters, not that you never use sonic maximizers, which are usually built out of a limiter that comes after a massive gain stage.

That's sort of like saying you never use fructose when you mean you never use high fructose corn syrup - fructose is one of the ingredients of HFCS, but not the one that's the problem (glucose).

Anyway, sure, any tool can be used or abused, and some of them are built to be abused. But just like the knob on your stove has settings between "off" and "high," you have options between "none" and "MAKE EVERYTHING TOTALLY LOUD" even on sonic maximizers.
User avatar
jast
Ice Cream Man
Posts: 1325
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:03 pm
Instruments: Vocals, guitar
Recording Method: Cubase, Steinberg UR44
Submitting as: Jan Krueger
Pronouns: .
Location: near Aachen, Germany
Contact:

Re: It Might Get Loud

Post by jast »

Well, I'm not so sure about that. Whether you add gain in front of the limiter (and you make a valid point; the gain that's built into most limiter plugins isn't technically part of the limiter) or not just causes a shift on the dB meter (assuming the output stays below the ceiling at all times), but doesn't actually change the dynamics at all. So, even if I use a limiter without adding gain before it, it results in exactly the same changes to dynamics.

So, let's say I'm using a limiter on my audio without ridiculous amounts of pre-gain. I can either let it make small changes -- in which case the effect is negligible, too, and probably better handled in the mix -- or I can let it make bigger changes and immediately it screws up the dynamics on part of the audio (so much for transparency). What was the big advantage in using a limiter in the first place, again?

If I wanted to make my songs louder, the first thing I'd do is rearrange them and use less pads. If I wanted to fix the dynamics in my songs, I'd have to bite the bullet and automate the heck out of problematic bits in tracks. Most of the time I don't do that because I have more interesting and important things to do... but at least I've realized that a plugin won't do it for me and don't waste any more time trying to fiddle with parameters.
User avatar
fluffy
Eruption
Posts: 11028
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 10:56 am
Instruments: sometimes
Recording Method: Logic Pro X
Submitting as: Sockpuppet
Pronouns: she/they
Location: Seattle-ish
Contact:

Re: It Might Get Loud

Post by fluffy »

jast wrote:So, let's say I'm using a limiter on my audio without ridiculous amounts of pre-gain. I can either let it make small changes -- in which case the effect is negligible, too, and probably better handled in the mix -- or I can let it make bigger changes and immediately it screws up the dynamics on part of the audio (so much for transparency). What was the big advantage in using a limiter in the first place, again?
Reducing clipping during those couple of peaks that go a little bit higher than your maximum level without having to quiet everything down or fiddle with the mix in that spot.
Post Reply