Pronouns profile field added

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Lunkhead
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Pronouns profile field added

Post by Lunkhead »

I added a new profile field where folks can specify their preferred pronouns if they would like to do so.
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fluffy
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Re: Pronouns profile field added

Post by fluffy »

👍
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Re: Pronouns profile field added

Post by fluffy »

So hey, I've noticed a bunch of people filling out their pronouns! That's great.

I'm noticing a few... let's say "comedic" entries. That is of course your right to do so, but bear in mind that it makes the environment incrementally less-welcoming to people for whom this is a concern. I'd strongly suggest being sincere about them.

Also the point to this is third-person pronouns. While "you/y'all" are indeed pronouns they're not what's really intended by this, either.

Just, y'know. Trying to nip a certain Internet tendency in the bud, here.
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Re: Pronouns profile field added

Post by codywalkerjr »

I noticed that I was required to fill out the Pronoun fields when I updated my account..I think making it optional would be a more inclusive option and may help avoid the issue of people "Goofing off"
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Re: Pronouns profile field added

Post by fluffy »

Nah.
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Re: Pronouns profile field added

Post by fluffy »

Longer answer:

I see that you have set your pronouns to 'private.' That is certainly your right to do so, and there are plenty of other options that you could use to specifically opt out of having pronouns stated. By not declaring your pronouns, that means that when people want to refer to you in the third person, their best option is to just refer to you by name every time, and that gets awkward.

The point to having visible pronouns is so that people know whether to refer to you as he, she, they, or something else. They are not a political statement, they're just a means of allowing people to refer to you in the way which you would like to be referred.

As a thought experiment, let's say there's a conversation going on between you and two other people, and one of those other people wants to refer to a point you made. Are they expected to say "Cody" every single time? "I agree with Cody when Cody says that this song doesn't sound good to Cody."

No? That doesn't work for you?

This is your opportunity to state what does work for you. Or, for you to indicate that you truly do not care what people use in that situation, in which case someone can feel free to say, for example, "I agree with Cody when it says that this song doesn't sound good to her."

Just as an example.

A declaration of pronouns doesn't require outing yourself or giving your full psychosexual history or gender identity. It's just "hey, in this environment, how would you like to be referred to." If you're most comfortable being referred to as he/him, then this is your opportunity to say so. If you later decide you're a they/them, then you can change it.
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Re: Pronouns profile field added

Post by sleepysilverdoor »

The thing is -- it shouldn't be political, but it is. It's dumb. But it is. I personally wouldn't put it either. Not because I have any hangups about people knowing I'm a man, not because I'm like some hardcore right winger, but because I dunno, I just...like not having it there. Also -- with a name like Cody, I would say "he" anyway. I've never met a woman named Cody. It is not generally considered a unisex name. If Cody had a problem with my default assumption of referring to him as him, he would probably correct me. Same reason why I don't put my pronouns in my work email. There's a picture of my face in my profile, and my actual name is Ian. 99% of people would correctly assume that my pronouns are he/him based on the picture of a dude named Ian. It feels superfluous. I agree with Cody that it is "inclusive" to have people's preferences to not post their pronouns and leave it blank to respect their preferences.

Yes, I'm one of the people who "goofs off". I'm well aware that my pronoun field says "bruh". If it were up to me, I wouldn't post them either. I would prefer not to post my pronouns at all. I'm with Cody on this one, an option to not display it would be great.
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Re: Pronouns profile field added

Post by fluffy »

I'm glad that you're part of the group that doesn't normally have to think about this shit and who has never felt the impact of being the "default."
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Re: Pronouns profile field added

Post by jb »

You can enter some dashes if you’d just like to leave it blank.
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Re: Pronouns profile field added

Post by fluffy »

Yes, exactly. Meanwhile, I'm fine with inconveniencing people by making them have to think about others for a couple seconds.

plus it's a good signal for filtering out spam accounts
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Re: Pronouns profile field added

Post by sleepysilverdoor »

I don't think there is anything wrong with posting pronouns. I just think we shouldn't have to if we don't want to.
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Re: Pronouns profile field added

Post by fluffy »

You don't have to, you're just asked to think about it for a few seconds before you fill it with nonbreaking spaces or a meme or whatever.
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Re: Pronouns profile field added

Post by CynicalMonkey »

It’s also about just making it normalised so it doesn’t single people out. Which becomes exclusionary in itself.
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Re: Pronouns profile field added

Post by codywalkerjr »

I tried to approach this sensitive topic in a respectful manner and not surprisingly, met with "nah" and sarcasm.

Inclusive means ALL opinions, not just your own.
Misgendering has never been an issue for me, Therefore I choose not to participate.

Making pronouns optional is the right thing.

Making pronouns optional is actually MORE inclusive than forcing people to use the pronoun window. (Even if I have to put a dash)

Anyone that lives anywhere
Outside of West Coast of the United States will most likely agree with me.
Pronouns should be respected but OPTIONAL.

Since a small group of people continually insist on pressuring others to participate in new trends, Don't be surprised when people reject your idealogy and "Goof off".

I have no issues respecting the gender choice of others. This is not hate speech. This is common sense.
This page should be about music.
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Re: Pronouns profile field added

Post by codywalkerjr »

fluffy wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2024 5:48 pm
Yes, exactly. Meanwhile, I'm fine with inconveniencing people by making them have to think about others for a couple seconds.

plus it's a good signal for filtering out spam accounts
Yes, So think about us for 2 seconds. We don't want to participate.
Maybe have a site wide poll.

Should pronouns be optional?
Yes/No
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Re: Pronouns profile field added

Post by CynicalMonkey »

So I don’t live in the west coast of US and I don’t agree with you.

Take a second and a step back for a moment. You want it to be an optional field, the option is there to put a dash, a single key stroke, about 300 keystrokes less then you have spent asking for it to be made optional and a dozen less than putting a goofy answer.

All that’s been asked by the site (to which I am not affiliated, just a user) is that people who don’t want to provide their pronouns don’t use the field to make the kind of goofy jokes that are most often used to spread hate.

I don’t think the point of the field is even about wanting to know everyone’s pronouns. It’s there to let people who don’t know if a site may be safe for them or not could be. Those same people who will see this thread marked as the most recent the first time they log into the forums and get a big red flag that maybe it’s not a safe space.

What are you fighting for here? Its optional? It already is my dude.

You want to be only about the music no one is stopping you but you right now.
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Re: Pronouns profile field added

Post by vowlvom »

codywalkerjr wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2024 8:10 am
Anyone that lives anywhere
Outside of West Coast of the United States will most likely agree with me.
Nope.
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Re: Pronouns profile field added

Post by fluffy »

So, let me tell you a little story.

I have been part of the Song Fight! community longer than anyone else who is still active. I started visiting the site in December 2000, and first entered in January, 2001.

When I first joined at the end of 2000, I had long known I was trans, but I was deeply closeted, and desperate for somewhere I could find even a shred of self-expression. Song Fight! felt like a great place where I could Do Gender and be myself for the first time in my life.

I was met with bitterness, outrage, derision, and ridicule for it. People made jokes about me cutting my dick off, or they called me crazy, or just rolled their eyes and asked me to just please shut up because they didn't care.

I tried to assert myself but was only made to feel small and insignificant and worthless, but I still wanted to participate in Song Fight!. So I stuck with it, but over time got less and less open about my gender identity. It faded into the background and most people decided I wasn't serious about it because I'd stopped making any mention of it, just trying to blend into the woodwork and hope that people would eventually come to understand.

Over the years I'd continue to do things to try to indicate my gender, but it took until 2016 before I decided to reassert myself. By that time, the climate had changed; transness was finally becoming accepted in mainstream society, and people were much more willing to understand that there's a lot more variation in gender and identity. And so I came out all over again, and by this time, most folks at Song Fight! had no idea to see this as anything other than totally new information. Some of them came to understand some of the more vague things I'd been saying in retrospect, but that was still pretty uncommon.

But the most important thing is: I was welcomed, and accepted, and this was very important to me.

Later on, some folks from the early days confided in me about how bad they felt about how I was treated in the early years. I very much appreciated it, even though that still reminded me of the hurt I felt and how differently things could have gone if I'd had even a modicum of the most basic acceptance.

I am now one of the admins of Song Fight!. I don't do too much for the site or forums these days, and I'm not even the person who decided to add the pronoun field to begin with, but one thing I will always do is make sure that people find the acceptance I never got.

I am so very grateful to Spud, JB, and Lunkhead for being accepting allies.
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Re: Pronouns profile field added

Post by jast »

I've never really had any reason to be confused about my identity (for the most part, but this isn't about me), but I do have a lot of empathy for people who struggle with that, and have to deal with all of the friction with, well, less understanding people on top of that. I don't think anyone wants this to be about making things harder for trans folks (mostly because I prefer believing in people's willingness to be decent until they prove me wrong).

I also don't think making the field mandatory improves anything whatsoever (and as far as I'm concerned, the notion that if everyone put in their pronouns, it would normalise that and prevent people with non-normative (does that make sense?) pronouns from being singled out, any more than any other straightforward approach, is a complete fantasy), and I don't really follow the argument that asking people who don't want to put in pronouns to put junk characters in it has any useful effect at all.

That said, I don't feel strongly about the whole thing.
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Re: Pronouns profile field added

Post by CynicalMonkey »

The normalisation argument is that if only people who are NB use pronouns then they might as well have a big sign on their head singling them out as NB. If most people use them then it doesn’t single anyone out. Same logic as why it’s useful when heterosexual couples to use partner when referring to their husband/wife, so that it normalises the term and means that people in homosexual relationships don’t feel like they are putting a sign around their neck.

It’s not the normalisation of the pronouns themselves (he/she/they are pretty normalised already) but the normalisation of sites like this having the field.
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Re: Pronouns profile field added

Post by Pigfarmer Jr »

CynicalMonkey wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2024 9:30 am
All that’s been asked by the site (to which I am not affiliated, just a user) is that people who don’t want to provide their pronouns don’t use the field to make the kind of goofy jokes that are most often used to spread hate.
I wanted to point out that if you made the field optional then there would be no incentive to use the field in any way other than as intended. I wholly support having the field added to the site. I also think it should have remained optional. I think you'll find more people who do not normally deal with this issue will want to use it in support and less people will use it in unintended ways.

Also, if we're asking for respect for a person to live out a different identity than is maybe obvious (which I think should be a no brainer) perhaps we could also show a little respect for people who may not want to participate yet.
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Re: Pronouns profile field added

Post by fluffy »

The thing is, early on when the pronoun field was optional, some people did still use it as an opportunity to spread hate, thus my first words on this very thread.

I am under no illusion that mandatory pronoun fields will make the world a better place, but they at least become a helpful signal to people who are trying to find the better places that exist already.
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