How to rock?

[Mostess]

I mean this seriously. Those who rock (and you know who you are*): how do you do it?

Adding for clarity: I expect some answers like "just do it" or "you just feel it" or "just say fuck it" or whatever. If that's all there is to it, then that's it. But I suspect this group has some good ideas to help someone who naturally tends toward pop to get a little better at rocking.

*or you think you do. Ha ha.

[Billy's Little Trip]

I'll post in this thread being that it is on top of the other (it was at this time).

There is no trick to rocking when playing live. I saw a guy in a wheel chair once, by himself and only playing a violin. He ROCKED.

Recording in the studio is a whole different game. I've found that even a guy that really rocks, can sounds sterile on a studio mix. It actually takes more work to sound raw, than to sound polished.
Not saying that I fit the bill here, but here are a few things I do to record my songs with as much projection and rocking feel as I can.

1. Allow one instrument (excluding drums) in the song to always be the dirty one. Guitar, bass, piano, vocals, back up vox, etc. In my case, I keep the guitar loose and dirty.

2. Never make the drums dirty, but loose is fine, in fact, loose drums are great in loud music. But the drummers time has to be right on or a rocking song becomes a mess. My way of loosening a tight drummer is simply adding more room reverb or FX.

3. Make sure the entire band works as one entity. IE, when there's a break, everyone hits the break, etc.

4. Remember the rocking golden rule, the sounds between the notes are as important or more so than the actual notes.

5. Lead singer needs to be comfortable with the song and the added bits that aren't on the lyrics sheet are just as important as the lyrics. I personally find this hard to do on the one week fights. I need to sing a song numerous times before it becomes part of me.

6. The studio. If you can't record on tape, find the best possible analogers, tape simulators, tube drivers or tube anything for that matter. Bleed over is your friend to get a raw rocking mix.

7. Don't over compress! One of my tricks is to compress to a good over all sound, then move uncompressed parts back into the mix to highlight certain parts, mainly the highs. Snare, cymbals, etc.

8. Keep the bottom stuff warm. Again, a tube pre amp or simulator is great on the bass guitar and rhythm guitar.

Most of the things I've mentioned here are things I've learned here at SF and then worked with them to get my own sound and tricks. It's a work in progress, so please don't take my advice as pro advice.

[Reist]

My advice here - post your most rockinest song in this thread and I'll give you some tips to rock it harder. If I don't know what you're doing wrong, it'll be tough to give useful advice.

ps - I'm still not sure if I rock ... so if I don't, someone tell me before I make a fool out of myself.

[ken]

By observing Blue it seems that you must lose all regard for your equipment's or your own personal well being. Play as hard, fast, and loud as you can.

[erik]

First, you need material that you can rock on. You can have the best pop song in the world (and Mostess, you have some sweet ones) and you still might not be able to rock them out. And that's okay.

So get some rockin songs and then do what Ken said.

[Reist]

fast

I'd like to disagree. Some of the heaviest, rockinest* songs I know have pretty low bpms. I'd say tempo-wise, it's different for every tune, but you've got to be able to pump your arm to it. Can you see people headbanging or swaying to it at a certain tempo? If so, it should be the right speed (as long as it fits the song).

*I need a more grammatically correct term for this.

[Billy's Little Trip]

One thing about Blue, his timing is great, so he can play on a $50 kit and make it work.

But Erik made a good point. The song has to rock. But I still say that a sterile recording will take all the passion and rockatude out of a good song.

[Hoblit]

Clutch would be a good example of a band with slower BPM but RTFO.

Billy's list covers all the technical ways to rock out and you already called out on the 'just do it' type advice.

Remember this:

Don't hold back. When you check yourself too much... you lose all ability to rock out both live and in the studio. Its that balance of your natural ability to play the song correctly while giving it your all at the same time. You can't whisper sing falsetto because its late and you don't want to disturb anyone. That carries and translates badly.

Same live... if you are worried about something being off balance in the mix..address and fix it, don't account for it.

[Lunkhead]

I don't know that I rock that much, but my advice would be:

1. Be loud
2. Be aggressive
3. Make sure the drums sound big and are played hard
4. Use distorted guitars, and layer them up (doubling or more the rhythm parts)
5. Don't use much reverb, to keep things sounding like they're in your face
6. Collaborate with people you think are rockers
7. Don't write sentimental or subtle lyrics

These are not rules or anything, just some suggestions.

[bz£]

I don't really rock either, but I did receive two emails today with the subject "Longer, thicker and rock hard." If you need me to forward them or anything, just let me know.

[obscurity]

2. Never make the drums dirty, but loose is fine, in fact, loose drums are great in loud music. But the drummers time has to be right on or a rocking song becomes a mess. My way of loosening a tight drummer is simply adding more room reverb or FX.

I'm not sure I'm clear what you mean by dirty in this context, but if you mean the opposite of clean, then I wholeheartedly disagree. I've used stuff like izotope trash or guitar rig or other fsu fx on drums precisely to make the song rock harder, and I think it works really well. Hell, you're a nin fan, right? How can you doubt this?

6. The studio. If you can't record on tape, find the best possible analogers, tape simulators, tube drivers or tube anything for that matter. Bleed over is your friend to get a raw rocking mix.

8. Keep the bottom stuff warm. Again, a tube pre amp or simulator is great on the bass guitar and rhythm guitar.

Again I have to disagree. I think it's perfectly possible to rock in an entirely cold and digital manner. At least, I fucking hope it is or I've wasted a lot of money on digital gear! Have you heard my entry for The Elements Of Style? Do you think that rocked ? I hope that it stands as an example that you don't have to go warm or analogue to rock.

[blue]

imitate things that rock. avoid 9ths. utilize the flatted fifth. distort the bass. try your best to ruin equipment - especially ken's.

mostess, you should try doing a simple, stupid oi punk tune.

rocking tunes are mostly visceral. too much thinking loses the point.

or cover the abominominious catalog.

[jb]

I believe that rock is a musical feeling, and that lyrics and vocals can be ignored if you rock musically.

Elements of rock:

1. Distortion. When in doubt, distort something.
2. If the tempo is slow, the volume must be high.
3. If the tempo is slow, add counterpoint to make it feel faster.
4. If no counterpoint available at the store, a kick drum must POUND each beat. See my cover of Henrietta's "Romantic Cheapskate".
5. If the tempo is fast, the volume can be lower, but the other rules apply. People are generally impressed by fast things.
6. Although not strictly necessary to rock, shouting seems to help. Also, a gravelly voice. But the other elements still need to be present. After all, Tom Waits, bless his soul, does not often rock.
7. Mix the vocals back. Rock songs aren't rock songs if you can understand every word. I struggle with this.

I think element #1 is the most important for rocking. Without distortion, you almost always wind up with just a pop song.

[Billy's Little Trip]

2. Never make the drums dirty, but loose is fine, in fact, loose drums are great in loud music. But the drummers time has to be right on or a rocking song becomes a mess. My way of loosening a tight drummer is simply adding more room reverb or FX.

I'm not sure I'm clear what you mean by dirty in this context, but if you mean the opposite of clean, then I wholeheartedly disagree. I've used stuff like izotope trash or guitar rig or other fsu fx on drums precisely to make the song rock harder, and I think it works really well. Hell, you're a nin fan, right? How can you doubt this?

6. The studio. If you can't record on tape, find the best possible analogers, tape simulators, tube drivers or tube anything for that matter. Bleed over is your friend to get a raw rocking mix.

8. Keep the bottom stuff warm. Again, a tube pre amp or simulator is great on the bass guitar and rhythm guitar.

Again I have to disagree. I think it's perfectly possible to rock in an entirely cold and digital manner. At least, I fucking hope it is or I've wasted a lot of money on digital gear! Have you heard my entry for The Elements Of Style? Do you think that rocked ? I hope that it stands as an example that you don't have to go warm or analogue to rock.

I guess my idea of rocking, is rawness and punch. Digitally clean songs that are supposed to rock, nauseate me. I'm not saying that digital is bad, not at all. Digital is where it's at. What I was saying is that one instrument that you make dirty, try to keep it as un-digital "sounding" as possible and try to warm up the bottom end anyway possible.

You said, "I think it's perfectly possible to rock in an entirely cold and digital manner. At least, I fucking hope it is or I've wasted a lot of money on digital gear!". I'm going to have to just say this is a personal thing. Because I hope I'm aiming in the right direction, or I've waisted a ton of money on tube amps and simulators to warm up my digital music.

As far as distorted drums. Have you ever heard a distorted kit in a live performance? I'm not talking about an electronic kit or a kit mic'd on the PA, I'm talking an analog kit. The harder you pound it, the louder it gets. That's how a drum should sound to me. Again, I don't claim to be an expert, nor do I discount your opinion. But a distorted, over boosted, or fuzzy kit on a studio mix, sounds like crap and does not rock me.

[Hoblit]

Acoustically speaking:

Distorted drums in the studio: great
(I remember that Power Station and Arcadia ((both Duran Duran affiliated)) used distorted drums on a couple of tracks) Especially if you put an aggressive noise gate on them. BUSH BOOM BUSH BUSH BOOM PSSSTTTT BUSH BUSH BAM BAM BOOOM BUSH! Love it. ROCKS

Distored drums live: What? I've heard it, it sucks.

Electric drums be it machine, keyboard, other midi type drums... you can do it both live and in the studio and pretty much achieve the same thing. However, I don't really go see many bands that have electronic drums to be honest. And when I do, (the band itself) its iffy. I haven't seen too many electronic acts in Tampa do all that well with programmed drums. I've never been to Germany.

[obscurity]

But a distorted, over boosted, or fuzzy kit on a studio mix, sounds like crap and does not rock me.

Even on tracks like Happiness In Slavery or Heresy from nin (just using them as an example 'cos I know you're familiar with them)? 'cos that's what I mean when I say cold and digital can rock. Do they sound warm/analogue to you, or don't they rock?

[Billy's Little Trip]

But a distorted, over boosted, or fuzzy kit on a studio mix, sounds like crap and does not rock me.

Even on tracks like Happiness In Slavery or Heresy from nin (just using them as an example 'cos I know you're familiar with them)? 'cos that's what I mean when I say cold and digital can rock. Do they sound warm/analogue to you, or don't they rock?

Heresy is a good example, actually. A very solid pounding song with one dirty element, which are the vocals. Distorted vocals warm them up in my opinion. If I remember right, the song does crescendo into a lot of distortion over all. But most of the song is solid and it is all pulled together using tape or some kind of tube or simulator. I'd put a pretty high bet on that fact.
But I'll go have a listen right now to be sure, but that song comes up on my play list quite often.

[obscurity]

Heresy is a good example, actually. A very solid pounding song with one dirty element, which are the vocals. Distorted vocals warm them up in my opinion. If I remember right, the song does crescendo into a lot of distortion over all. But most of the song is solid and it is all pulled together using some kind of tube or simulator. I'd put a pretty high bet on that fact.

It's almost like we're talking about two different songs. What I hear when I listen to Heresy is fuzzy, digital drums (listen to that snare! For god's sake man, that doesn't sound fuzzy to you?!), along with very harsh digital guitars and vocals. If there's anything warm and analogue in that song, it must be pretty far in the background as far as my ears can tell.

[Billy's Little Trip]

Acoustically speaking:

Distorted drums in the studio: great
(I remember that Power Station and Arcadia ((both Duran Duran affiliated)) used distorted drums on a couple of tracks) Especially if you put an aggressive noise gate on them. BUSH BOOM BUSH BUSH BOOM PSSSTTTT BUSH BUSH BAM BAM BOOOM BUSH! Love it. ROCKS

First off, I meant if you are standing in front of a drum kit with no mics. That's how I like drums to sound. But in the studio you have to simulate space or room sound artificially, as you well know. But it should be as close to "real" as possible, "in my opinion". Everyone has different tastes about that.

As far as back in the day of Power Station, Arcadia and the likes. I remember trying to get that sound. If I remember right, it was a heavy reverb, then bring the hit back in on a second track so that it was really wet, but with a loud hit. I liked that sound for about 15 minutes of my life. Not so much anymore, lol.

[Billy's Little Trip]

Heresy is a good example, actually. A very solid pounding song with one dirty element, which are the vocals. Distorted vocals warm them up in my opinion. If I remember right, the song does crescendo into a lot of distortion over all. But most of the song is solid and it is all pulled together using some kind of tube or simulator. I'd put a pretty high bet on that fact.

It's almost like we're talking about two different songs. What I hear when I listen to Heresy is fuzzy, digital drums (listen to that snare! For god's sake man, that doesn't sound fuzzy to you?!), along with very harsh digital guitars and vocals. If there's anything warm and analogue in that song, it must be pretty far in the background as far as my ears can tell.

Ok, I just youtubed it and yeah, it is pretty damn distorted all around, isn't it?
I prefer the drum sound on "only", for example.

[obscurity]

Ok, I just youtubed it and yeah, it is pretty damn distorted all around, isn't it? :lol:

Well, to be fair, that youtube clip isn't exactly the most pristine copy of the song I've ever heard :)

I prefer the drum sound on "only", for example.

Sure, and I'm not for a moment suggesting there's anything wrong with that preference :) I just wanted to dispute the idea that if you want to rock you must never make the drums dirty or go digital - I think that's both untrue and self-limiting.

[fretnoize]

That album was recorded on tape though. Yeah, had to look it up to make sure.

from wikipedia (um censored???? ok a website containing lots of facts that people can edit and add to... I just don't like to quote something without giving credit, damn my 8th grade english teacher and her bibliographies!!!) concerning downward spiral "Reznor said, "99 percent of the stuff we do–even vocals–is recorded into the computer [hard disk] first. We get an arrangement together and then dump it to tape.""

I think you guys might be talking apples (pun not intended) and oranges. I think Billy is trying to point out the usefulness of the warmth of natural tape compression/distortion. I don't think that's mutually exclusive from having bad ass evil/mechanical/electronic/distorted drum sounds.

I think it needs to be considered too that the distorted drum sounds are distorted and manipulated in a very controlled manner and they're probably samples at that point.

When the drums were dumped to tape i'd bet it was very likely these samples of distorted drums were pushed to the edge and slightly beyond the tape's dynamic range.