Prefight Thread Switcheroo

[TheCapitalistYouth]

I don't think anyone is arguing that it's impossible to write a song based on a certain title. It's just some titles are more preferable than others.

[tonetripper]

If I wrote a song that I called "Switch", but pretended that I was calling the song "Switcheroo", then I was inspired by the title "Switch", I wasn't inspired by the title "Switcheroo". Other titles my song called "Switch" would not have been inspired by: Switcherino, Switcherama, and Switchilicious.

You may have glazed over this Capitalist Youth.

There is some dispute amongst people in the ranks that would argue this to the nth degree. This is the best part about Songfight! imho.

I might have something for this.

[TheCapitalistYouth]

If I wrote a song that I called "Switch", but pretended that I was calling the song "Switcheroo", then I was inspired by the title "Switch", I wasn't inspired by the title "Switcheroo". Other titles my song called "Switch" would not have been inspired by: Switcherino, Switcherama, and Switchilicious.

You may have glazed over this Capitalist Youth.

I thought erik was saying he could write a good song based on switch, but a crappy one on switcheroo.

There is some dispute amongst people in the ranks that would argue this to the nth degree. This is the best part about Songfight! imho.

The arguing? wink wink

[erik]

I'm not arguing that it's impossible to write for a given title. I really don't know how someone could get that meaning out of what I've written.

[frankie big face]

He may be referring to my comments. I'd much rather write a song called "Switch" than "Switcheroo" and I really don't think it's the same thing. "Switch" is a pretty cool word because it's a verb and a noun, it has a lot of different meanings and it rhymes with a lot of other words. "Switcheroo" is slang, a noun only, doesn't rhyme and has limited meanings. For example, I could write a song about capital punishment or (more likely) one that uses capital punishment as a metaphor for the end of a relationship called "Switch." I can't write that song if the title is "Switcheroo." And I'd feel pretty stupid submitting my "Switch" song to SF under the name "Switcheroo" and yes, Caravan Ray, I think people would give me plenty of crap about it.

My main point is not that "Switcheroo" is such a bad title, but that it is limiting and not due to a lack of creativity on my part or those who understand and agree with my point. You could probably call the song about your dick being chopped off "Switch" and lose little of the effect (although, in the case of your song, "Switcheroo" is a much better title), but it's more difficult to rename a serious song called "Switch" as "Switcheroo."

By the way, there has been a lot of focus on me saying this title ("Switcheroo") is a bad title, but I think the point I was really trying to make with my initial post is that, for three weeks, the titles have been pretty silly, which translates to "bad" in my limited and apparently humorless world. More than the titles themselves, it's the trend that bothers me. You can shout out "Client No. 9!" and "Radio Ready!" (the latter of which I think is a fine title and the former of which I find almost as dull as "Ignorance is Bliss") all you want, but I still think the titles have been a little too goofy lately and felt the need to say it. Obviously, there is much support for these titles and no lack of songs based on these titles, so feel free to ignore me.

[Kill Me Sarah]

This has to be one of the longest prefight threads ever!

Oh and um, I don't like the title either.

[Heather. Redmon.]

Amongst all of this back and forth about the title this week, I'd just like to say that the Hell Yeahs are in!

[Caravan Ray]

The point is - I really don't think there is such a thing as a bad title. My favourite songs of my own include Les Anchois, Sugar Shaker, and Ottoman. I never would have written those songs without the silly titles as a jumping off point. And they are all non-joke songs.

I have done a few songs over at Tuneflow - but I really hate the titles they have there. They are so generic sounding. Last month the titles were:

She's A Keeper
Ignorance Is Bliss
The Ground Beneath Your Feet
Eyes Now Open

Apart from the fact that one title was stolen from Songfight (heads up Deepthroat) - they are really dull titles.

Give me Rockapolusaninjananophone anyday.

It sounds like you think that there *are* bad titles: dull ones.

Yes, it does sound a bit like that.

But I just said I didn't like them - not that they are bad titles. They are all potentially fine titles for a song. I don't like them because they don't make me want to write a song. They sound like songs that have already been written. "Ark of Philadelphia" sounds like a song I have never heard before - so I better write it.

I suppose I really meant I "prefer" the Songfight titles. Of course I could try to think of all sorts of new and interesting ways to write to "The Ground Beneath Your Feet" - but it seems like such hard work. The SF! titles like "Tomato" or "Les Anchois" - set you off a bit askew right from the outset. I like having that little push that helps me get started.

[Caravan Ray]

And I'd feel pretty stupid submitting my "Switch" song to SF under the name "Switcheroo" and yes, Caravan Ray, I think people would give me plenty of crap about it.

I really don't think they would.

A few weeks ago I entered "Tomato" with a song that was about homeless people in a large city.

The extremely tenuous link with the title came from me thinking:

tomato ==> tomato sauce ==> rhyming slang ==> dead horse ==> Phar Lap ==> popular cliche ==> "heart as big as Phar Lap"
tomato ==> gross lisse ==> gross Lizzy ==> homeless woman I remember seeing years ago in Sydney....

Not a single person in the reviews made a mention that my song didn't seem to be related to tomatoes in any particular way - BUT - without the title "Tomato" - I never would have written a song about a big-hearted homeless woman named Lizzy.

Weird thing is - I really can't think of any other title for that song. It will probably stay "Tomato".

[erik]

But I just said I didn't like them - not that they are bad titles. They are all potentially fine titles for a song. I don't like them because they don't make me want to write a song. They sound like songs that have already been written. "Ark of Philadelphia" sounds like a song I have never heard before - so I better write it.

I suppose I really meant I "prefer" the Songfight titles. Of course I could try to think of all sorts of new and interesting ways to write to "The Ground Beneath Your Feet" - but it seems like such hard work. The SF! titles like "Tomato" or "Les Anchois" - set you off a bit askew right from the outset. I like having that little push that helps me get started.

Semantics aside, the way you feel about dull titles is the way that me (and others) feel about wacky titles. I don't like them because they don't make me want to write a song. It feels more like a "who can come up with the wackiest lyrical idea that is tangentially related to the title" contest, and less like a contest based on songwriting.

[Ross]

So I guess it's been like this the full three years I've been here, and it is somewhat trivial, but I just noticed that even though it is daylight savings time here in California - the due time for the songs is still listed as Pacific Standard time (presumably and appropriately for global reasons). So I guess that means I could actually send it in till 10:59 (or is it 8:59) local time.

Anyway - I plan to be in. With a song that I might not ever play in public, but is inspired by the title and pushed my creativity to come up with a song that I am comfortable writing in an idiom I feel appropriately fits such a title. Sometimes with a "tough" title I find that it pushes me in that way - although I almost always start by trying to come up with a song concept that I could plug straight into my normal set and have no one wonder where it came from.

I initially thought "Tomato" was a terrible title - but quite enjoy the song I wrote for it (I even played it Culver City on Friday night). Some other titles I initially had negative reactions to never got written.

[Spud]

So I guess it's been like this the full three years I've been here, and it is somewhat trivial, but I just noticed that even though it is daylight savings time here in California - the due time for the songs is still listed as Pacific Standard time (presumably and appropriately for global reasons). So I guess that means I could actually send it in till 10:59 (or is it 8:59) local time.

It's a manual edit. Sometimes I forget to do it.

<edit> I take that back. I ALWAYS forget to do it. </edit>

[Billy's Little Trip]

hello everyone, I just had a really great sandwich.

[frankie big face]

And I'd feel pretty stupid submitting my "Switch" song to SF under the name "Switcheroo" and yes, Caravan Ray, I think people would give me plenty of crap about it.

I really don't think they would.

A few weeks ago I entered "Tomato" with a song that was about homeless people in a large city.

The extremely tenuous link with the title came from me thinking:

tomato ==> tomato sauce ==> rhyming slang ==> dead horse ==> Phar Lap ==> popular cliche ==> "heart as big as Phar Lap"
tomato ==> gross lisse ==> gross Lizzy ==> homeless woman I remember seeing years ago in Sydney....

Not a single person in the reviews made a mention that my song didn't seem to be related to tomatoes in any particular way - BUT - without the title "Tomato" - I never would have written a song about a big-hearted homeless woman named Lizzy.

Weird thing is - I really can't think of any other title for that song. It will probably stay "Tomato".

Well.....when I say "give me crap," what I really mean is someone may say "I like your song, but I can't vote for you because it seems like your song is called "Switch," not Switcheroo." I wouldn't expect a riot or anything. Anyway, Erik's right: the leap from Swticheroo to Switch came about only as a result of this thread. It's not a leap I normally make when considering the weekly title.

For the record, I think "Tomato" is a great title. Your take on it (I haven't heard the song, honestly) sounds interesting and reasonable in its connection to the title. You probably wouldn't have gotten there if the title had been "Tomato Paste," "Tomatoes, Inc.," "Attack of the Killer Tomatoes," "Tomato Man," "Tomato Under My Hat," "Fluffy Tomato," "Tomato Scorcese," "The Corner of Tomato and Cucumber," "Tomatoes 'R' Us," "Rotten Tomatoes," "Don't Forget to Take the Tomatoes to My House on Wednesday," "Tomato, You Are My Friend....And My Enemy," or "Tomatoroo," all of which seem more likely to appear in the upper right of your screen on any given day than simply "Tomato" because they have that look-how-clever-and/or-wacky-this-week's-title-is quality about them.

Semantics aside, the way you feel about dull titles is the way that me (and others) feel about wacky titles. I don't like them because they don't make me want to write a song. It feels more like a "who can come up with the wackiest lyrical idea that is tangentially related to the title" contest, and less like a contest based on songwriting.

I think this statement reflects my feelings as well. Erik and I probably have similar goals when it comes to songwriting. I'm interested in the craft of songwriting and, in the context of this contest, trying to construct a better song than the next guy in the allotted time frame and within some given parameters (title, occasional optional challenge). The "wacky element" makes this whole venture seem less about song craft and more about imagination or fancy. Don't get me wrong: a song like Starfinger's "More Than Soup" is pure comedy gold, but is this the goal every week? Jim of Seattle's "Punctuation Island" is a brilliant take on the title. But is it a song that transcends SongFight? If he plays it in a bar on Friday, will people be into it? (In the case of that song, probably yes if it's well-placed in the set--it's pretty damn good.) One of my goal's is to write songs that aren't just "good takes on the title" but good songs, period. Could I have done that with "Switcheroo"? I don't know, maybe. But I didn't want to because it just seemed too goofy. Maybe that's just my problem, but I think if the titles are turning off songwriters like Erik and me and Kill Me Sarah and anyone else who's interested in writing "serious" songs, then maybe they're a little too limiting or narrow in their interpretation. I'm rooting for SongFight--I like this place!--but if I had just discovered it a month ago and the first three titles I saw posted were "Purple Tongue," "Punctuation Island" and "Switcheroo," I would probably have thought, "okay, this doesn't seem like a serious place--I'll move on." (By contrast, the first three titles I did see were "On a Line," "Black Hole" and "Run Free"--not the most interesting titles in the world, but they resulted in some really good songs, imo.)

[obscurity]

Maybe that's just my problem, but I think if the titles are turning off songwriters like Erik and me and Kill Me Sarah and anyone else who's interested in writing "serious" songs

You can add me to that list too. I've been thinking it might be interesting to put up a silly poll to see what the majority view is on this subject, but I haven't decided what the most neutral way of posing the question is yet.

[starfinger]

I tossed some lyrics in the lyric mart.

these are decent lyrics except for the line that includes 'switcheroo' .. which side of this argument were you taking?

-craig

[EmbersOfAutumn]

Pending I get my sorry, lazy tail in gear, i'm in...

Finally got my damn Wii yesterday,

I'm out this week...

[Niveous]

Where do I stand in all this?

Hmmm.... Well, I believe that a song can be written from any title, even one as ridiculous as Switcheroo.

Do I think that the lyrics I wrote would be better if I didn't have to use the word switcheroo? Perhaps. But I wouldn't have been inspired to write it if it weren't for the title. If it were "Switch", I might have ended up writing about some other switch, like the type used to beat children.

So I'm firmly split on the title.

[frankie big face]

You can add me to that list too. I've been thinking it might be interesting to put up a silly poll to see what the majority view is on this subject, but I haven't decided what the most neutral way of posing the question is yet.

See, I don't think the people who make the titles even think these titles are "silly"! (My guess is that this particular title was inspired by the change in message board.) So, I'm not sure if a poll would accomplish much. I think speaking out about it is a good thing and I'm willing to have the discussion again (obviously).

I can't honestly say that the titles are the sole reason for my limited participation in SongFight. When I was very actively writing songs for the site, there wasn't much that could stop me and there were occasionally silly titles like "Pooch Quick Start" and difficult one like "Tracks for Future Practice" that I handled just fine. But it seems the wacky title has become the rule instead of the exception and that's what's frustrating for me. When I did Nur Ein, I was quite pleased to have some titles that offered flexibility and room for thought. But really, it was probably the competition that kept me writing, not the titles per se. I'm just glad they didn't make me write a song called "Punctuation Island."

Hmmm.... Well, I believe that a song can be written from any title, even one as ridiculous as Switcheroo.

So do I, but you couldn't stop yourself from describing the title as "ridiculous," so.....I don't know--I guess I have no point.

If it were "Switch", I might have ended up writing about some other switch, like the type used to beat children.

I haven't read your other lyrics, but here's yet another interpretation of a simple word which invites multiple interpretations.

[The Weakest Suit]

arguing about the goodness or badness of a title seems superficial to me.
frankie, your songs from nur ein two were incredible, but have you submitted a song to songfight proper in the last year? or more than two since 2006? would you have written a song out of blue if the title had been "switch"? why not just write one for switch, call it switcheroo for the fight, probably win the fight with an awesome song, and then "switch" the name to switch with whatever else you ever decide to do with it?
you can just write whatever you want for any title.
examples from my backlog of songs:
tomato: inspired by "the amber spyglass"
why so serious: inspired by "deathnote"
cute boots: inspired by Ramona Quimby
the last year: inspired by a local musician
just to be difficult: inspired by "the golden compass"
night terrors, baby be quiet, how much will you give me: inspired by a kurt kobain biography
so weird: inspired by "dead girls"
that's what she said: inspired by "kushiel's justice"
as you can tell, i'm usually writing about books i'm reading or tv i've been watching. exciting, huh?
and for the record, i would love to hear more frankie big face songs and i do hope you find the time/energy to enter the fights more. or are you saving yourself for nur ein 3?

[Ratt Poizon]

Backwards backwards song is very hard. I think I quit.

[frankie big face]

TWS, I acknowledged in my previous post that I haven't entered "SongFight proper" in a while. But obviously, I check in on the titles regularly, almost always with an aim toward participation. Would I have written a song this week if the title was "Switch"? I don't know--probably not. This discussion (not an argument, by the way) isn't just about my participation, it's about what kind of songs people want to hear when they visit the site, what kind of songwriters one would want to attract to the site and the overall health and well-being of the site. As you know, quantity doesn't equal quality and I'd like to see the site producing material of consistently high quality, regardless of genre. I happen to think the titles have something to do with that, but you are welcome to disagree.

I wish I could do Nur Ein 3, but it looks like I'll be unavailable for much of it. It really depends when it starts. If we can get it going by the end of this month, I could probably do it. I'm headed to Europe toward the end of June.

And for the record, I almost never win SongFight, no matter how awesome my songs are.