Lunkhead wrote:EDIT: Re: still not having 25 by tomorrow, that doesn't seem likely. Again, I'm not speaking officially here, but I think the primary intent is for enough of those people who previously announced that they would participate (and who may have even already written songs) to get their songs in to push us up to 25. That's only three people.
I understand the intent, but it didn't seem likely that less than 25 would enter on time, but THAT happened. All I'm saying is, if the reason behind the extension is that you didn't anticipate not getting 25 entries to start with (and you feel like the contest would be better starting with 25+ entries), then maybe you should anticipate that it might happen again, and have a plan for what to do if you only have 23 or 24, EDIT: especially if the only place you announced the extension is on the SF messageboard.
Nur Ein needs a myspace or something.
Last edited by erik on Sat May 03, 2008 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Round One:
Monday May 5th to Tuesday May 13th
Songs due on Saturday
22 bands, 5 eliminations
Round Two:
Tuesday May 13th to Wednesday May 21st
Songs due on Sunday
17 bands, 4 eliminations
Round Three:
Wednesday May 21st to Thursday May 29th
Songs due on Monday
13 bands, 3 eliminations
Round Four:
Thursday May 29th to Friday June 6th
Songs due on Tuesday
10 bands, 3 eliminations
Round Five:
Friday June 6th to Saturday June 14th
Songs due on Wednesday
7 bands, 3 eliminations
Round Six:
Saturday June 14th to Sunday June 22nd
Songs due on Thursday
4 bands, 2 eliminations
Final Round:
Sunday June 22nd to Monday June 30th
Songs due on Friday
2 bands, 1 elimination
I suggest changing this to read:
Round One:
Monday May 5th to Saturday May 10th
22 bands, 5 eliminations
Round Two:
Tuesday May 13th to Sunday May 18th
17 bands, 4 eliminations
Round Three:
Wednesday May 21st to Monday May 26th
13 bands, 3 eliminations
Round Four:
Thursday May 29th to Tuesday June 3rd
10 bands, 3 eliminations
Round Five:
Friday June 6th to Wednesday June 11th
7 bands, 3 eliminations
Round Six:
Saturday June 14th to Thursday June 19th
4 bands, 2 eliminations
Final Round:
Sunday June 22nd to Friday June 27th
2 bands, 1 elimination
The way it was written before doesn't stress the due date to the contestants enough in my opinion.
Phillipso, Older Brothers, Semolina Pilchards, Zipline , Thank Glennny for the Frisbee, The Odoriferous Valley, The Worldly Self Assurance, Berkeley Social Scene, Very Gentle Knives, Daddy Bop Swing Set, GUNS, The Kraken Lives, Cavedwellers
I could have done mine today and tomorrow and gotten needed (and well deserved) sleep. I mean, whats the point in having deadlines if we're just going to push them out for (as Frankie said) the people who didnt' read or follow the rules.
YEAH sure I could go back and polish mine up and re-record but I busted my ass trying to get this in on time. Only for it to be pushed back for those who didn't. If I'd known, I could have been planning on adding more fills and enhancing my song with IDEAS. The ideas that I didn't bother putting my mind to because I thought I was out of time.
The reasoning is 'for the better of the contest'...I don't think that reasoning stands because I for one am certainly discouraged already by the way this is being handled. I can read that others feel the same. Is that really GOOD for the contest realizing that people who did follow the instructions to a T are now overridden by those who didn't?
I realize there is room for error but what I've learned so far is that I could have submitted any old piece of crap to get in, and bar that... I could have waited two more days to make that crap better.
My point is slightly different, Hoblit. I am arguing in FAVOR of the idea that you could have submitted any old crap and gotten in under the bar, because you would have been aware of the risks of doing so. It's like buying a lottery ticket. You know more or less the odds, because you know that the drawing is on Saturday, and people only have so much time between now and then to buy tickets, so you make your decision to play or not, based on the information that you have. If you decide to buy, you know that the drawing on Saturday is the one and only thing that is going to determine whether or not you win. They aren't going to say "gee, not enough people bought tickets, we're putting the drawing off for a week". If they did, that would reduce your odds unfairly.
In this case, some people may have surveyed the field and decided that it was possible that less than 25 people would enter. They may have had limited time this week but elected to "throw their hat in the ring", so to speak, with a less than stellar entry in the hopes that this would be the case. They were taking a calculated risk, and they would have realized that if there were more than 25, they would likely be eliminated, but they were willing to take that risk.
Then the entries were announced. There were in fact less than 25, and they made it. They didn't put up too much of a fuss when late entries were allowed in, because they had already secured their spot. But then the game changed. The deadline was moved two days out, AFTER THE SONGS HAD ALREADY BEEN POSTED. The lottery drawing will be NEXT week, not this week, after all. Their odds just went down from what had been stated on the back of the ticket. Not only that, but COMPLETELY NEW COMPETITORS can go and listen to the songs and decide how far they need to push it to make the round. THEIR odds just went way up. In fact, it would have paid to make the bet in the other direction, wait to hear the initial entries, and THEN submit.
I am sure that some will say "may the best man win", and that these every entry will be judged equally, or something to that effect. But they weren't created under equal conditions. Perhaps there are those who will say, "it just goes to show, you should always give it your best shot". But this is different. It's an elimination tournament. It is modeled after a reality game show. There are SUPPOSED to be strategies and intrigue. Even so, you have to know what the rules are.
BTW, I am not saying that any of this happened, or that anyone's entry is less than superb. My objection stands on principle, not on fact.
Here is my suggestion for the next time there is a contest of this nature. Something like this:
"Entries are due [deadline]. If 25+ entries are received by [deadline], all entries will the posted soon after. In the event that there are not at least 25 entries, the deadline will be extended until the 25th entry is received or until [extension], whichever happens sooner. If the 25th entry is received between [deadline] and [extension], then the first 25 entries will be posted soon after receiving the 25th entry. If 25+ entries are not received by [extension], then an alternate schedule will be used and all entries will be posted soon after [extension]."
Benefits: People who submit on time at least know they're part of Round 0. People who wait until after the deadline to submit run the risk of submitting after the 25th entry, thereby giving them a (deserved) disadvantage. No one gets to hear any of the other songs until all submissions are in, so even people who submit late don't get an advantage there.
With all due respect, your odds don't change for winning the lottery no matter how many people do or don't buy lottery tickets. It's always trying to match 6 random numbers. Your odds will always be 1 in 41,416,353 for the Super Lotto in California. I realize that's beside your point.
Everyone,
I don't see why you don't say that the 22 on timers are automatically advanced. And are the only ones eligible for any prize. By the way is there immunity granted for the judges favorite in Round Zero?
I'd like to see more participants. Yes the late comers would clearly have an advantage of more time, but that's why they wouldn't be eligible for immunity, and the only ones eligible to be cut.
Phillipso, Older Brothers, Semolina Pilchards, Zipline , Thank Glennny for the Frisbee, The Odoriferous Valley, The Worldly Self Assurance, Berkeley Social Scene, Very Gentle Knives, Daddy Bop Swing Set, GUNS, The Kraken Lives, Cavedwellers
Speaking from personal experience, winning Round Zero does not earn you anything. No immunity, no prize, etc. (Of course, other than immunity, there is never any "prize" for winning a round, even for the final winner, as far as I know.)
Spud, you bring up a good perspective. I think Glenny has the answer
glennny wrote:I don't see why you don't say that the 22 on timers are automatically advanced.
Perhaps what we should have done was say "OK, the 22 of you who made the deadline are in safe; if any of you took a risk and submitted a crappy song, your gamble paid off. But, we still need three more entrants, so consider this to be Nur Ein Round 0.5. People have until Sunday Noon to submit to this mini-round, which will be parred down to 3 entries". Yes, it's true that the people entering Round 0.5 would have had longer to work on their songs, but at least everyone will be competing on an even-keel. I will see what the other judges have to say; if we make this extremely-last-minute clarification, will that make anyone angry?
Probably.
glennny wrote:By the way is there immunity granted for the judges favorite in Round Zero?
Nope. Round Zero basically exists outside of Nur Ein proper. No immunities.
Last edited by Adam! on Sat May 03, 2008 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
glennny wrote:Spud,
With all due respect, your odds don't change for winning the lottery no matter how many people do or don't buy lottery tickets. It's always trying to match 6 random numbers. Your odds will always be 1 in 41,416,353 for the Super Lotto in California. I realize that's beside your point.
Yes, it is beside my point, but thanks for the clarification. Bad example. I should have used a raffle instead, where they draw from the tickets purchased.
Reviews for the 1st 22 in the third Only One round Zero
I can not be objective about my band's entry. I do love it so. I would hope we would make the cut, especially since no one is being cut.
My band is of course : The Worldly Self Assurance- I love this band. I’m so honored to work with these guys. I have Banjo and Mandolin duties on this one. Furry Pedro has the Keyboard and Glock. Frisbee has the Verse Vocals. Melvin takes the everything else. I just love the result. I can’t possibly be objective about it.
Everyone of these songs is enjoyable, it's nice to hear the Nur Ein quality!
In order of favorite to least favorite disregarding the WSA:
Paco del Stinko- All the instruments sound soooo PHAT! Sweet guitar bends! That lick-fill thing at 1:24 is my favorite part, I was hoping there was going to be more of that stuff. The time change is Awesome! I love all of your personalities, I mean voices!
ADD- This sounds wonderful! You’re voice is amazing! The echo effect is very tasteful and effective! I think the chorus lyrically is a bit of a cop out. “Come on do the kick start”. It’s like a bunch of relationship angst good rock lyrics then “Come on do the___(insert title)”. Maybe I don’t get something. However this sounds so good it’s still among my favorites!
Frankie Big Face- During the intro I did my best Barry White impression and said “Aw baby take off your panties”, my wife about died, she thought it was in your recording. Anyway, this is great! I’m insanely jealous of your Bowie-esque vocals. I’m continually impressed with how well you genre hop. This is impressive!
Billy’s Little Trip- Yes! Excellent rock song! It sounds like it should be called “Kick Start” yet I don’t believe you actually say the words, that works very well! The descending melody in the background “ohs” is the hook, but I think it’s the weakest part of the song. Very good entry!
Glenn & Rachel- Disgustingly cheesy! Great recording, great melodies, great performances! You guys would be the Royalty of 1976 AM Rock Radio. No complaints, you guys are going to be tough to beat, if not impossible.
Andrew Reist- Great solo! Nice riff! Nice hooks! Thanks for bringing the Rock Power! It’s only 3:12 but I think it’s either too redundant or some of the repeats need to deviate from the previous repetitions more. All said, this is awesome!
Ross Durand- How close are you to the George W Bush album? This along with Man Date, you’re well on your way. I bet there’s a bunch more. This is great! The “patriociticity” is a great joke! You do this genre very well!
King Arthur- Solid and Loungey. The lyrics are very good and appropriate for the title and challenge; lyrics are always your strong suit. Mix is great! Nice guitar licks! The organ is a great touch too! Great song!
BK- Acoustic sounds fantastic! Your voice is great too. It’s good to hear you again! I really enjoyed most of your entries last year. This song is nice and melancholy like a folk song should be.
Tex Beaumont- great song! I hate the mix. Just the vocals are WAY too up front and the interesting music is really buried. Love to hear a remix of this. It ends up sounding karaoke like.
Starfinger-Vocals are very Roland Orzabal. I love the vocals. This is the weirdest tune of the fight. The turn it takes at 2:16 I don’t think is as strong as what lead up to it. The 1st 2 minutes are great, I really don’t like the last minute and a half.
Hoblit- What a weird riff, it’s part Ozzy and part Chuck Berry. This is enjoyable. There’s something very Kiss about this song other than the weird riff. Nice guitar playing, I think a wailing solo is conspicuously absent however.
John Benjamin Band- It starts so huge, and then get’s so small so quickly. I think the vocal slap back is too much. This strikes me as underdeveloped. Great vocals as usual. The mix is really odd.
Jim Tyrrell- What the Hell? I guess this isn’t bad, but I like your normal vibe and style much more than this. Why? Why? Why?
Adam Adamant- Oh so very British. I find the vocals to be way too hot, makes it a bit karaoke. I like the breakdown. The lo-fi keys are charming.
15-16 Puzzle- In all the live Song Fights I’ve been to, you’re by far the most covered songwriter. So I had very high expectations. I like your voice a lot. This is a silly dopey song. It’s pretty infectious.
Embers of Autumn- For some reason this title and challenge brought out the 80’s in people. This production needs a lot of help. Disregarding the production issues, the song is not a bad 80’s soundtrack pop song.
Octothorpe- Nice bass! Pretty funny.
Sausage Boy- Very interesting background music. The vocal melody sounds very unsure of itself.
Cock- This does not sound inspired. The Goth groove is fine, but this really needs a stronger melody.
MC Eric B- No matter what I write, I think you’re laughing at me. You’re very good at being you.
Great Fight Everyone! I hope I get to add a few more reviews soon!
Phillipso, Older Brothers, Semolina Pilchards, Zipline , Thank Glennny for the Frisbee, The Odoriferous Valley, The Worldly Self Assurance, Berkeley Social Scene, Very Gentle Knives, Daddy Bop Swing Set, GUNS, The Kraken Lives, Cavedwellers
With all due respect, your odds don't change for winning the lottery no matter how many people do or don't buy lottery tickets. It's always trying to match 6 random numbers. Your odds will always be 1 in 41,416,353 for the Super Lotto in California. I realize that's beside your point.
If I assume the odds for winning the Super Lotto in California are 1 in 41,416,353 and then somebody comes along and says "Hey Erik, we're extending the drawing till next week, and we're letting you buy a ticket after looking at everyone else's numbers", then I don't have a better chance than any other person of having the winning numbers, but I do have an advantage over some of the ticket buyers because I can select numbers that I know no one else has chosen, thereby ensuring that if I do win, I don't have to split the jackpot with anyone.
If I assume the odds for winning the Super Lotto in California are 1 in 41,416,353 and then somebody comes along and says "Hey Erik, we're extending the drawing till next week, and we're letting you buy a ticket after looking at everyone else's numbers", then I don't have a better chance than any other person of having the winning numbers, but I do have an advantage over some of the ticket buyers because I can select numbers that I know no one else has chosen, thereby ensuring that if I do win, I don't have to split the jackpot with anyone.
Yes this is true, however I feel lost in an analogy here. I don't see how this is applicable to Nur Ein Round Zero, especially since there is no immunity granted for the winner. There is no winner here, only potential losers. You have no advantage for not being cut , over the participants whom entered on time. I don't see the connection.
Phillipso, Older Brothers, Semolina Pilchards, Zipline , Thank Glennny for the Frisbee, The Odoriferous Valley, The Worldly Self Assurance, Berkeley Social Scene, Very Gentle Knives, Daddy Bop Swing Set, GUNS, The Kraken Lives, Cavedwellers
Please, let's try to stay focused on the current reality and not get too sidetracked in hypothetical parallels to our situation. We can't "unpublish" the songs, regardless of whether or not it was a mistake to publish them in the first place. We hit a situation we didn't expect, and we didn't handle it as well as we could have, but we want to move on and do what we can do that's going to work well for the contest overall and for the participants as much as possible. Erik has proposed a strategy for dealing with this situation in the future which I think is really great and should definitely be adopted. (I think he should be a judge next year, too.) Meanwhile, Adam has proposed something that we can implement now to try to minimize the woes of the current situation. What say you?
Unless that is you mean that you're in the thick of the contest already and you want to eliminate everyone that there's any reason whatsoever a reason to eliminate.
By extension, if you were the only participant to enter on time, would you declare victory and the contest would be over?
Phillipso, Older Brothers, Semolina Pilchards, Zipline , Thank Glennny for the Frisbee, The Odoriferous Valley, The Worldly Self Assurance, Berkeley Social Scene, Very Gentle Knives, Daddy Bop Swing Set, GUNS, The Kraken Lives, Cavedwellers
Adam! wrote:the 22 of you who made the deadline are in safe; if any of you took a risk and submitted a crappy song, your gamble paid off. But, we still need three more entrants, so consider this to be Nur Ein Round 0.5. People have until Sunday Noon to submit to this mini-round, which will be parred down to 3 entries"
I think this is a good way to handle it. No one who submitted in time for the original deadline should be eliminated by someone who submitted late.
Charles (KA)
"...one does not write in dactylic hexameter purely by accident..." - poetic designs
Dear Angry Mob thirsty for "Judge Blood",
It is apparent that many of you are upset by the recent decision to extend the due date for round zero. I understand how it would seem unfair to some. May I remind you that this is absolutely not the first time in SongFight history (or Nur Ein for that matter) that a date has been pushed forward? For those of you who are irritated that you have lost sleep trying to meet a deadline for this round, I recommend that you prepare yourself for even more sleepless nights. Should you make it to the next round, you will find there is little mercy, especially if you make it to round five or six. By then, not only have you not slept for over a month, but you have no inspiration or ability to tell good from bad. Nur Ein Is hard. It is demanding. Consider it a stroke of luck that you might have the chance to fine tune your songs. The reality is that we did not anticipate this scenario, and at this point there is nothing we can do to completely solve the problem.
We are trying come up with a rational solution for this situation. Puce has suggested some very helpful ways to reasonably solve this, so I think we should all consider where we are "now" rather than dwell on what "was".
If I assume the odds for winning the Super Lotto in California are 1 in 41,416,353 and then somebody comes along and says "Hey Erik, we're extending the drawing till next week, and we're letting you buy a ticket after looking at everyone else's numbers", then I don't have a better chance than any other person of having the winning numbers, but I do have an advantage over some of the ticket buyers because I can select numbers that I know no one else has chosen, thereby ensuring that if I do win, I don't have to split the jackpot with anyone.
Yes this is true, however I feel lost in an analogy here. I don't see how this is applicable to Nur Ein Round Zero, especially since there is no immunity granted for the winner. There is no winner here, only potential losers. You have no advantage for not being cut , over the participants whom entered on time. I don't see the connection.
The point is simply this: assuming all other things equal, people who get to hear all the songs before writing their own song have an advantage over people who get to hear no songs before writing their own song. The advantage is that they can make choices based on what they've heard. If they were planning on doing something that is eerily similar in style or content to a song that already exists, they might change their mind for fear of being seen as a copycat (or worse, a copycat that did a worse job than the original.) If they were considering two different genres and they see that someone already did a much better job than they could have done, they might decide to do something else entirely, rather than have their song compared with another song so closely. Same thing applies for a lyrical approach. If you can use that knowledge to make choices that prevent you from being cut, that's an advantage even if there's no "winner" for Round 0. Round 0 has exactly 25 winners, as 25 people will advance to Round 1 and the rest will not.
No, it's not the worst thing to happen ever ever in the history of evers, but it's a suboptimal situation, and I would just like to say "This is not the best" so that it doesn't look like it's no big deal and then it happens again, sometime in the future.
