PRESIDENTIAL DEBATES

[Caravan Ray]

That's a good point, the 34% issue. But the with the bipartisan system, not everyone who voted for the winning candidate is neccessarily behind him--just less against him. Therefore, it's possible--I daresay probable--for a president to be disliked by the majority of the country, despite having won the majority of votes.

I don't really know how your system works - but for the last 20 years or so, Australia has had a significant 3rd party. The Australian Democrats were started with the purpose of "Keeping the Bastards Honest" and have held the balance of power in the Senate ever since*. Basically, the Government can govern, but unless it has support of the Democrats in the Senate - laws won't get passed. The Dems have always tried to play the role of safety valve for bad legislation.

It had become quite common in Australia for people to vote for one of the major parties in the House of Representatives - but go for the 3rd party in the Senate. The 3rd party will never have numbers to govern, but they have a huge impact on government policy.

*(NB: This was current until last weeks election. The Democrats are now virtually extinct and have been replaced by the Greens as the significant 3rd party. The Greens unfortunately do not hold the balance of power in the Senate. The new Liberal Government is the first in over 20 years that will be governing with a majority in the Senate - this is a bit scary)

[Poor June]

Do it like sports -- start out with 8 candidates. The 4 who get the most votes move on to the next round, 2 more voting rounds and you've got a president.

Or even better, do it like survivor. Put 8 candidates in the white house in september, and vote one out every week until november. The one left is the president.

We just have to look to TV for the answers.

i second this \m/

[j$]

the problem with having more than one voting round is the large cost/difficulty of actually having an election. -bill

And also you would have law of diminishing returns on voter turn-out. Or possibly the other way round, but you see what I mean, I hope ...

j$

[Mogosagatai]

15-16 puzzle said:

Every voting system has flaws. In every system where every person is given one vote, and all votes are equally weighted, there is a chance for the winner to be disliked by the majority. Having more than two candidates does not remove this possibility.

Yeah, I know. My point, sort of like yours, was that this is possible no matter what the number of candidates, so that majoratative dislike of the president is not a disadvantage in any system. It was just a response to Jim, who slightly suggested that this might be a disadvantage with three candidates.

[Caravan Ray]

...and let me gaze further into my crystal ball. I predict that with 4 more years of insular Republican government - George W Bush will be the last American to hold the title of "Most Powerful Man on Earth". By the time they light the flame at the Beijing Olympics in 2008, the mantle of World Super Power will be well and truly shifting across the Pacific to China.

American corporations will still hold plenty of power in the world, but by then the US government will be getting invitations to the "We Used To Be Important" Annual Dinners along with Spain, France, England and Russia.

Lets look at what Caravan Ray was saying 4 years ago!

Was he right? I dunno

Was he drunk? Probably

Was he wrong? Well, that's for you to decide. If I were you though, I would just listen to what Caravan Ray says and do it. He has your best interest at heart. Trust him. Love him.


How is the world viewing the "superpower" after years of illegal war, torture of prisoners and illegal detention of prisoners? About the same as China really. The moral high-ground has well and truly gone. Welcome back to the pack USA!

[JonPorobil]

McCain went ahead and surprised us. Sarah Palin. Who'da thunk it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin

[Billy's Little Trip]

Yeah, I saw that this morning. Obviously trying to grab up some of those women voters. Good choice for his sake. I honestly thought about this some time ago, that this would be a good move for him.

[Paco Del Stinko]

I dunno. Seems like this one could go either way for him. Nobody has ever heard of her, yet he looks progressive by nominating a woman. Then again, maybe a put-off for those who still believe in the barefoot and pregnant role for woman, many of whom might be likely to lurk in the GOP. First thing I thought of was the oil drilling in Alaska thing, which I believe I saw her supporting recently. Good surprise, anyway. He still sucks though.

[Hoblit]

She's an obvious ploy.

He's obviously going for those 'Women Clinton supporters who vow not to vote for Obama'. So he gets anyone who had their heart set on a woman in office.

Between that and Obama's pick in Joe Biden ( http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3169612 ) I'm SERIOUSLY thinking about voting for Bob Barr at this point.

[Niveous]

Bob Barr, the same guy who protested the practice of Wicca in the military?

There's a war going on and a recession and he's worried about Wiccas. Who worries about wiccas? Priority check, please!

[Hoblit]

Bob Barr, the same guy who protested the practice of Wicca in the military?

There's a war going on and a recession and he's worried about Wiccas. Who worries about wiccas? Priority check, please!

Lesser of three evils?

[JonPorobil]

I'm surprised people actually care enough about VP nominees to let it influence their vote. I guess you could make the argument for Palin, since McCain is rather old, and might die in office, but VPs really don't have enough clout to seriously affect their running mates' campaigns or platforms. Name me one thing Al Gore did in office. Ditto Quayle. And no cheating.

[erik]

I'm surprised people actually care enough about VP nominees to let it influence their vote. I guess you could make the argument for Palin, since McCain is rather old, and might die in office, but VPs really don't have enough clout to seriously affect their running mates' campaigns or platforms. Name me one thing Al Gore did in office. Ditto Quayle. And no cheating.

In office, in schmoffice. Vice presidents are practically handed the presidential nomination when the president is done with being president. The reason people care is that the person that gets picked to be VP has a good chance at getting to be president.

[Hoblit]

I'm surprised people actually care enough about VP nominees to let it influence their vote. I guess you could make the argument for Palin, since McCain is rather old, and might die in office, but VPs really don't have enough clout to seriously affect their running mates' campaigns or platforms. Name me one thing Al Gore did in office. Ditto Quayle. And no cheating.

In office, in schmoffice. Vice presidents are practically handed the presidential nomination when the president is done with being president. The reason people care is that the person that gets picked to be VP has a good chance at getting to be president.

With a very notable exception of Dick Cheney... who is also the exception to Generic's synopsis as well. Dick Cheney DOES seriously effect the current presidential administration. I'm not sure how you could have missed that Mr. Erik. That challenge was way too easy.

I'm pretty sure that a VP spot for Joe Biden will only help his campaign against the internet just as everything Cheney & Bush have their fingers has also benefited. Then ADD what Erik here just mentioned...

I believe this is why the Libertarian party is starting to look better and better to me. It seems that their agenda is to concentrate on getting their fingers OUT of stuff. I don't agree with everything on their platform and I believe in social programs...but right now I think they are the only ones offering that real CHANGE that Obama has been preaching.

[Billy's Little Trip]

I'm surprised people actually care enough about VP nominees to let it influence their vote. I guess you could make the argument for Palin, since McCain is rather old, and might die in office, but VPs really don't have enough clout to seriously affect their running mates' campaigns or platforms. Name me one thing Al Gore did in office. Ditto Quayle. And no cheating.

In office, in schmoffice. Vice presidents are practically handed the presidential nomination when the president is done with being president. The reason people care is that the person that gets picked to be VP has a good chance at getting to be president.

Exactly. We've had 14 VPs become president in our country's history. Although 8 of them because of death and 1 because of resignation. But 5 because the public liked them.

[jack]

i just thought this was pretty stupid and hilarious and who better to share it with than you guys!

[Sober]

Disgraceful. McCain will be 72 at the time of inauguration, and he's fought cancer twice. President Sarah Palin would be a statistical likelihood, and a terrifying one. She's been mayor of a tiny town in Alaska, and governor for 18 months. Who's been making the experience argument? If they really wanted the bullshit grab for the Hillary vote, they should have gone with Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchinson from TX (they tried, and she said no). As much as I hate her, she's at least experienced. So instead, they go for tits and ass.

The argument that VP's don't actually matter is valid only after they're in office. The selection is an insight into the kinds of decisions the candidate is going to make once elected, however.

Obama had opportunities to make cheap, demographic picks for VP. He could have picked someone from Ohio and sewn the election up. Instead, he picked Joe Biden, who is extremely qualified and would make a great president should something happen to Obama. He doesn't guarantee any battleground state, he doesn't seal up any key demographic, he's just a good guy. The pick demonstrates that he can make decisions for the good of the country, not for the good of a campaign.

McCain's pick is a pathetic, transparent grab for Hillary voters, and if I was a woman I'd be insulted. Putting a hot piece of ass on the ticket is exactly the kind of ridiculous crap that so many people are tired of. This pick is not about what is good for the country, it is about trying to squeeze your way through a fast-closing door. It's disgusting what the GOP has done to McCain. It's shameful that this hero will have this silly, juvenile legacy, whether he's elected or not (if you haven't read his debrief of his time in 'Nam, I highly recommend it).

The sickening thing is that this could work for them. We'll see if this puts a dent in the post-DNC polls, or widens the gap.

[Caravan Ray]

McCain's pick is a pathetic, transparent grab for Hillary voters, and if I was a woman I'd be insulted. ..This pick is not about what is good for the country, it is about trying to squeeze your way through a fast-closing door.

Isn't it exactly the same as a young black dude picking an old white bloke as his VP. It's just marketing isn't it? They are just trying to cover as many demographics as possible.

Putting a hot piece of ass on the ticket is exactly the kind of ridiculous crap that so many people are tired of.

She only came second in Miss Alaska. If he had the winner - then he might be on to something.


But what does a VP actually do? Do they have any role at all. They don't have a seat in Parliament or Congress or the Senate or whatever you call it do they? They are not the head of any department? Surely if this is the bloke (or lady) who is supposed to be the next best option for running the show - he probably should be put to good use while he's waiting. As a position - it sounds about as useless as The Prince of Wales. Has there every been any moves in the USA to abolish the position? It all sound very monarchical. At least when the Prince of Wales gets the top job - he is only expected to open cake stalls and cut ribbons and stuff. He can't actually launch thermonuclear war or nothing.

(By comparison- under the Westminster system - if a PM carks it, the Deputy Leader of his party will become PM. The Deputy Leader is always also a cabinet minister, usually the one with the hardest job - ie the Treasurer (eg. now-British PM Gordon Brown) or in the case of the current Aust deputy - a Super Ministry - Minister for Education, Employment and Industrial Relations. At least you know that they will be reasonably capable, and have not been chosen just as part of marketing campaign based around their ancestry, age or genitalia)

[Hoblit]

McCain's pick is a pathetic, transparent grab for Hillary voters, and if I was a woman I'd be insulted. ..This pick is not about what is good for the country, it is about trying to squeeze your way through a fast-closing door.

Isn't it exactly the same as a young black dude picking an old white bloke as his VP. It's just marketing isn't it? They are just trying to cover as many demographics as possible.

Yes, and I thought THAT was pretty transparent too.

Putting a hot piece of ass on the ticket is exactly the kind of ridiculous crap that so many people are tired of.

She only came second in Miss Alaska. If he had the winner - then he might be on to something.


But what does a VP actually do? Do they have any role at all. They don't have a seat in Parliament or Congress or the Senate or whatever you call it do they? They are not the head of any department? Surely if this is the bloke (or lady) who is supposed to be the next best option for running the show - he probably should be put to good use while he's waiting. As a position - it sounds about as useless as The Prince of Wales. Has there every been any moves in the USA to abolish the position? It all sound very monarchical. At least when the Prince of Wales gets the top job - he is only expected to open cake stalls and cut ribbons and stuff. He can't actually launch thermonuclear war or nothing.

Doesn't the Prince get some fairy faction of the armed military too?

Anyways, you're KIND OF right but no. The VP carries a lot of influence and they send the VP to various countries in place of the President to put the foot down vicariously. That and our current VP plays an active roll in getting his old companies contracts...wait, did I say that out loud? It could be argued that our current VP has the most influence over our president than any of his official advisers. Heck, he's one the only ones that hasn't quit for that matter.

My point is that the role of our VP has been changing and gaining more power just as the President has also.

Our current VP nominee for the Democratic party is against internet freedoms including encryption and is in the pockets of the mpaa, riaa, and most of Hollywood. I hate him and he's completely ruined my outlook on the Democratic Party's agenda. (and I ain't even looking McCain's way)

[jack]

in the event of a tie in the senate, the VP decides the vote.

and more importantly, in the event the prez dies, the VP is the new president.

McCain is 72 i think? if he were to serve 2 terms, he'd be 80. scary. i don't want an 80 year old in charge of this country.

[Caravan Ray]

As I understand it - all of the important cabinet jobs are actually held by public servants selected by the Prez, not elected people. Is that right (eg the Condi Rices and Colin Powells, and Rumsfelds etc).

Do you know who the Prez will put in his Cabinet before you vote for him - or is that sprung on you later?

[Sober]

McCain's pick is a pathetic, transparent grab for Hillary voters, and if I was a woman I'd be insulted. ..This pick is not about what is good for the country, it is about trying to squeeze your way through a fast-closing door.

Isn't it exactly the same as a young black dude picking an old white bloke as his VP. It's just marketing isn't it? They are just trying to cover as many demographics as possible.

I don't know if you've ever seen our political scene, but it's ALL OLD WHITE BLOKES. My point was that he didn't make an obvious 'win Ohio' pick, or Hillary (who would also have sewn up the election). From the available candidates, he selected a guy that gave him no particular advantage other than being a good public servant. His pick doesn't guarantee him the election, but it is ultimately one of the best choices possible for the US should he get elected.

You can't honestly say that Biden is within 10 levels of the pandering that Palin is.