Pell Grants (Or, seriously though, Bush, wtf?)

mkilly · Post by **mkilly** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:26 pm

"Got four more years, I've got more to do to continue to raise standards, to continue to reward teachers and school districts that are working, to emphasize math and science in the classrooms, to continue to expand Pell Grants to make sure that people have an opportunity to start their career with a college diploma." -- gwb, oct. 13 2004 (emphasis added)

Compare that with this NY Times article:

Students to Bear More of the Cost of College
By GREG WINTER
Published: December 23, 2004

College students in virtually every state will be required to shoulder more of the cost of their education under new federal rules that govern most of the nation's financial aid.

Because of the changes, which take effect next fall and are expected to save the government $300 million in the 2005-6 academic year, at least 1.3 million students will receive smaller Pell Grants, the nation's primary scholarship for those of low income, according to two analyses of the new rules.

In addition, 89,000 students or so who would otherwise be getting some Pell Grant money will get none, the analyses found.

"Season's greetings from Uncle Sam," said Terry W. Hartle, senior vice president of the American Council on Education, which conducted one of the analyses and represents about 1,800 colleges and universities. "Your student aid stocking is going to be a little thinner next year."

Beyond the implications for Pell Grants, the new rules are expected to have a domino effect across almost every type of financial aid, tightening access to billions of dollars in state and institutional grants and, in turn, increasing the reliance on loans to pay for college. Taken together, many education experts say, the consequences for the nation's core financial aid programs are among the most substantial in a decade.

"This is the first time in at least 10 years where there's been a significant reduction for this magnitude of students," said Brian K. Fitzgerald, director of the Advisory Committee on Student Financial Assistance, which was created by Congress to advise the lawmakers on financial aid. It was this committee that performed the other analysis.

The changes are the denouement of a fight that has roiled Congress for more than 18 months. When the Bush administration first proposed altering financial aid rules last year, legislators stopped the revisions from taking hold, arguing that tough economic times meant students needed more help to attend college, not less.

But this year the administration found support from Congressional leaders seeking to constrain the cost of Pell Grants, an expense that has steadily increased as more low-income students go to college.

Even with the new rules, spending on Pell Grants, which could easily surpass $12 billion this fiscal year, may continue to increase, and the ranks of recipients will probably grow as well, because so many new students are applying for aid.

Without the changes, though, Pell Grant costs would be about $300 million higher than with them, according to figures from the White House Office of Management and Budget, since tens of thousands of additional students would be eligible for aid and hundreds of thousands more would receive larger awards.

Exactly how individual families will be affected depends greatly on their financial circumstances and on where they live. Parents who earn at least $15,000 will be negatively affected in every state except New Jersey and Connecticut. Those in states including New York, Massachusetts, Michigan, Delaware, Virginia, South Carolina and Wisconsin will be among the hardest hit.

Many may see their federal grants decline by only a few hundred dollars, or not at all, some financial aid experts estimate. Others can be expected to contribute significantly more.

Painful though it may be, supporters of the new rules say, trimming back on awards has its benefits, especially for future students.

Educators and lawmakers on all sides have long agreed that the maximum Pell Grant, currently set at $4,050 a year, is wholly inadequate given today's college costs. But, supporters of the changes say, unless there is a serious effort to scale back the program, whose costs have been exceeding lawmakers' appropriations for it, Congress may never be in a position to give larger awards to the poorest of students, who need them the most.

"There aren't any easy answers, and there are consequences for wrongly adding hundreds of millions of dollars to the current budget shortfall," said David Schnittger, spokesman for the Republican majority on the House Committee on Education and the Workforce.

The debate stems from a seemingly small alteration to the federal financial aid formula, a complicated equation that either directly governs or heavily influences distribution of federal, state and institutional aid. Its purpose is to determine how much of a family's income is truly discretionary and therefore fair game for covering college expenses.

Much as with the federal income tax, the formula allows families to deduct some of what they pay in state and local taxes. This year the administration gained enough Congressional backing to reduce that amount significantly, in some cases cutting it by half or more. On paper, at least, that leaves families with more money left over to pay for college, even though state and local taxes have gone up in the last few years, not down.

The Department of Education, which issues the financial aid formula, says it has no choice but to update the deductions periodically.

"We're required by law to do this, and we can't pick and choose which parts of the law to follow," said Susan Aspey, a department spokeswoman.

Ms. Aspey said by e-mail yesterday that about 80,000 additional students - not 89,000 as the two analyses determined - would be receiving grants if the changes had not been made. She also said that nearly half of the nation's 5.3 million Pell recipients would not be affected, though that would appear to leave the possibility that the number affected will be even higher than the 1.4 million estimated in the two analyses. Ms. Aspey could not be reached last night for elaboration.

In adjusting the formula, the department is relying on data from 2002, which may not fully reflect the economic difficulties that many families have faced since then. Department officials, however, say the new formula is a lot more accurate than the previous one, which was at least a decade old.

The enormous University of California, with campuses scattered across the state, estimates that at least half of its 46,000 Pell Grant recipients will face some sort of reduction as a result of the changes. At the other end of the spectrum, Knox College, a small liberal arts institution in Illinois, says the changes will most likely reach upward to affect the middle class as well.

"Of course we focus on the students who have the greatest need, but these families are needy, too," said Teresa Jackson, Knox's director of financial aid. "They can't just sit down and write a check for $30,000 a year. I can appreciate the difficulty with the budget, but my gosh, to cut back on financial aid given the times doesn't make a lot of sense."

Hoblit · Post by **Hoblit** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:34 pm

Whats worse Mkilly is that college degrees have decreased in worth over the last few years.

Those of us with years of experience in the working field can probably attest to this. I've been hands on all my life due to being a High School drop out. I have seen more than a few college graduates from more than a few different varieties of college, tech, and other vocational type schools enter the work force. Many of them have been severely disapointed with their salary after spending so much time and money on schooling. I, with six years hands on, am making more than most of the techs in the hosting company one floor up. They all have at least two year degrees in some type of school. Most of them with even more time and money invested.

This problem is perpetuating itself. You spend more and more on school and make less and less money because of it. Long run MAYBE, if you stick it out long enough, that degree might get you to the next level faster. It might not. It's a sad state of affairs and the article you have presented makes it even more clear that students need to learn how to invest in their future with more scrutiny than ever before.

Justincombustion · Post by **Justincombustion** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:50 pm

This is exactly what the country DESERVES after voting they way they did. Anyone who didn't see things like this coming are brainwashed, church trusting, homo-hatin, NASCAR watching, Toby Kieth fans.
Bed. Made. Lie.

Oh, Mr Bush, what would you say to someone who's job you outsorced?

"I'd send 'em to Community College."

Brilliant, just fucking brilliant. How are they going to pay for it?

Hoblit · Post by **Hoblit** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:18 pm

Justincombustion wrote:brainwashed, church trusting, homo-hatin, NASCAR watching, Toby Kieth fans.

Thank god I'm only one of those things. And I do trust SOME churches...

My dad is one of those other things... hmmm

Thank god I voted Kerry. (Dad didn't vote at all) I wouldn't want to be ALL of those things.

Justincombustion · Post by **Justincombustion** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:33 pm

You like Toby Kieth?!?

Sober · Post by **Sober** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:40 pm

This thread gets a 'no duh' from me.

McCain '08

mkilly · Post by **mkilly** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:48 pm

Hoblit wrote:Whats worse Mkilly is that college degrees have decreased in worth over the last few years.

Well, I don't know about that. People with baccalaureates still make much more than people without their first year out in the job. Anyway, another thing is that college costs more and more and Pell grants are decreasing in real worth, because they aren't inflation-adjusted. Back in the day they were worth much more than they are now.

Hoblit · Post by **Hoblit** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:51 pm

mkilly wrote:
Hoblit wrote:Whats worse Mkilly is that college degrees have decreased in worth over the last few years.
Well, I don't know about that. People with baccalaureates still make much more than people without their first year out in the job. Anyway, another thing is that college costs more and more and Pell grants are decreasing in real worth, because they aren't inflation-adjusted. Back in the day they were worth much more than they are now.

Yeah, I didn't mean doctrines and law degrees to be lumped into my statment either.

Hoblit · Post by **Hoblit** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:53 pm

Justincombustion wrote:You like Toby Kieth?!?

Yes, have an album or two...seen him in concert. I like Toby Keith. My dad loves NASCAR. I also dig the idea of church... but only some churches... so I can't TRUST all churches.

Pretty sure I"m not brainwashed...but maybe thats what they want me to think.

erik · Post by **erik** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:32 pm

Justincombustion wrote:Bed. Made. Lie.

Stop. The. Hyperbole.

Justincombustion · Post by **Justincombustion** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 1:16 pm

Can't. Stop. It's a problem with my logic receptors. (It's in my medical record if you don't believe me!!)

Fried · Post by **Fried** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:36 pm

I think we need to expand the feeling of entitlement. There are not enough people out there who have a distorted view of how much they are worth. I think every child should not only be given an education, even if they don't apply themselves or do anything else to deserve it, but be given a high paying job. Even if we fail them and they drop out. If we took all the money from those righteous rich people that may have worked for their money, but certainly don't deserve it, and gave it to the people who are more in need, we would all be happier.
Fuck them! I worked my ass off, no education to speak of, and got a number of different jobs. I just so happened to be excellent at programming. So I worked my way past the stigma of "Not Having an Education" and now pay a shipload of money to people who are more fortunate than I was. I say we make it mandatory to pay for your own education. I mean the total freaking cost! In 1994 Higher education consumed 15% of Minnesota’s state budget. In 2004 it was 40%. So screw all the dead beat losers who think life should handed to them. Get off your asses, get a job, work hard and good things will happen.

P.S. wtf did Carter, Regan, Bush Sr. or Clinton do about it. I'll tell you, jack shite! All the worlds’ woes don't fall at the feet of one idiot. Take some responsibility for it, when was the last time you donated a tax return or turned over your paycheck to help a college student you didn't know?
/rant

erik · Post by **erik** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 4:35 pm

I think maybe someone hacked into the messageboards, because I can't find one instance of someone saying they felt entitled to Pell Grants.

If something is given away for free, it doesn't make you lazy to take it.

Post by jb » Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:53 pm

and also, it's not that anybody else said they were gonna do something about Pell grants, it's that GWB said he was gonna and then did the opposite. in other words, he lied to us. (again.)

Leaf · Post by **Leaf** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:16 pm

jb wrote:and also, it's not that anybody else said they were gonna do something about Pell grants, it's that GWB said he was gonna and then did the opposite. in other words, he lied to us.

GEORGE BUSH DOES NOT LIE.

Geez Fried, take a deep breath. Who says you're "excellent" at programming anyway? (kidding, I have no idea myself.) What does spark me off about your post though is the attitude that just cause you had to suffer, that everyone else should too. Why SHOULDN'T society be set up in a manner that everyone can benefit? I think everyone should work for a living, and to me , the privledge that someone like you, or me, gets is the reward of doing things we enjoy, or are good at and getting paid to do. Some other shlep gets to clean and gut fish, I get to sit up here. Fair is fair. But I would never try and deny someone opportunity or assistance just cause I didn't need it or get it... that's selfish. That kind of spouting off does nt help anyone other than giving you a means to express your anger. Don't waste my and your time by going on about "deadbeats" etc... most people (not all,but most) can get a job. Those that choose not to may do so due to other issues other than being "deadbeats". School takes alot of time, especially if you want to succeed. Why not invest in a society??? You think that's a waste of funds? The disparity in wealth is ridiculous man. And totally pointless. You got to realize that some skills are assigned more worth than others due to the ability to control demand, not the "time" you put in. What about the dude who devotes his life to being a kick ass fish processor? Why does he get siginifcantly less? If you've ever worked on a fish processing line, you'd feel gratiful for the opportunites afforded you in life, get off your pedestal of arrogance and feel some pity for your fellow humans who need some help realizing THEIR dreams.

Sheessh.

EDIT: I thought about cut and pasting this to word to spell check, but unfortunately I had to pay for my education, so suffer the wrath of my education.
EDITTWO: Hey, if you're so kick ass at programming, how's about you write a little spellchecker for this message board....one that limits Poor June to only 3 "..." per post while your at it....
EDITTHREE: I still like you.

mkilly · Post by **mkilly** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:44 pm

Fried wrote:(...)wtf did Carter, Regan [sic], Bush Sr. or Clinton do about it. I'll tell you, jack shite! All the worlds’ woes don't fall at the feet of one idiot. (...)

I'm pretty sure at least Carter and Clinton signed legislation to increase Pell Grant money; I don't know about Reagan and Bush Sr. but I wouldn't be surprised if they both did, too. Anyway, they're not the ones on trial here--even if Clinton didn't do anything, he was presiding over the longest period of economic expansion in American history. Reagan too, for his time. Bush met an economic depression, cut funding for higher education, cut taxes (overwhelmingly for the already-wealthy), all while saying he was helping the little guy. It's deceitful and in my opinion didn't stimulate the economy as investing in higher education and cutting taxes on the middle class might've done.

If you want to whine about "giveaways" so people can get education, then I hope you feel the same way about farming subsidies, the steel tariffs Bush passed, and Congressional pork (probably the kind that keeps you employed at a good salary--I know that the local high-tech firm Micron collects some coin from the gummint). I'd be very surprised if Minnesota didn't get what it spends on education back and with change, via an educated workforce.

Fried · Post by **Fried** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:08 am

To start off, I love political blogs! All opinion and no facts make for a great debate. If your arguments were not tainted by Bush hate speak, I would find them easier to stomach. (Bush lied again) Hahahha, find me a president who didn't lie! Clinton never lied! Regan may have lied but he probably couldn't remember it and Carter was probably the most truthful but did he do anything? Bush promised to help PELL grants, but I don't see where he said WHEN! Possibly you know better, possibly.
One of the points I find particular interesting is no one answered the somewhat hypothetical, but not totally, questions at the end of my rant. You see, I do volunteer every week to help the homeless. I spend an enormous amount of money every month to ensure Drunks have a cup of coffee and a place to meet. I also see on a daily basis the sense of entitlement we are building into our educational structure by the attitudes of the people I serve. Many of which have degree's. I know there is an enormous amount of money wasted by the dream of an education. If you are of the hold hands and sing we are the world type, please read no further. This may cause irregular heart palpitations. We are not all equal. There are people smarter than others. Given the same opportunity, there are people who will fail because they are not constitutionally able to grasp the knowledge to succeed. Anyway this has gotten long and I need to get back to programming. Of which I might add I am excellent at doing. Hehe.
How I know? Because I am better than everyone else I have met at what I program in (of course they don't let me out of my box very often)... No spell check, sorry.

Fried · Post by **Fried** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:15 am

"First and foremost, the Federal Pell Grant is free money for college! Pell Grants do not have to be repaid. The Federal Pell Grant is an entitlement and therefore, everyone who qualifies will receive the Pell Grant! AND, one other thing, there is no Pell grant application!" ...

"...Chances are if your family's adjusted gross income is over $40,000 or so, the student will not qualify for the Pell grant. But do not despair just because you do not qualify for a Pell grant; that does not mean you will not qualify for ANY financial aid! "

quoted from http://www.financialaidsupersite.com/pe ... =standard on who can qualify for a Pell Grant.

Leaf · Post by **Leaf** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:17 am

Dude, you can volunteer all you want, but you clearly still have disdain for those "lesser" than you. I have many talents that have allowed me to excell both in a fish plant environment, and in the local music scene. I do not , however, lose sight of the fact that while capable, I can not fix anything in my car without making a mess. Does this make me car stupid, or car ignorant? I do not lose sight of the fact that I have benefited from being in the right place at the right time, or that my gift for the gab has allowed me to excell in a job that's all about talking. Of course we are not all equal ability, however, equal in ability and equal in opportunity are two different things. Apples and oranges. You may have noticed that my spelling and grammar on the message boards can be less than college perfect. Does this make me stupid, or just lazy? Does this imply that I am lazy at everything I do? Making assumptions about people who are down on their luck, or who have failed in life by comparing them to yourself is a fallacy. Comparing others sucess to your vision of sucess is also a fallacy.

Second point: you're claiming that the posts contrary to yours are fueled by anti-Bush sentiments. Clearly, yours are fueled by a deep love for the man.

Third Point: What Mkellis said, cause I don't know anything about these grants... or Bush's promises... but I do know this: I LOVE BUSH.

Not the band. Not the President. do not taunt happy fun ball.

mkilly · Post by **mkilly** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:16 pm

Yeah, having a salary of $40,001 doesn't make it easy to write a check for $12,000 for a child's education. That quote is misleading because one has to fill out the FAFSA for a Pell grant.

erik · Post by **erik** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:33 pm

Fried wrote:We are not all equal. There are people smarter than others.

You cannot become a doctor without attending college. You cannot become a lawyer without attending college. The fact that some people are able to succeed in their chosen profession without a degree (or without grants for their education) does not mean it is possible to do for every line of work, and it doesn't prove that they are smarter than anyone else. Turning down free money in no way proves intelligence.

Fried wrote:You see, I do volunteer every week to help the homeless. I spend an enormous amount of money every month to ensure Drunks have a cup of coffee and a place to meet. I also see on a daily basis the sense of entitlement we are building into our educational structure by the attitudes of the people I serve.

Pell Grants were not designed to be given to homeless drunks.

Germane anecdotes would be ones where you volunteer to help graduating seniors who can neither afford tuition at their college of choice nor at the colleges that accepted them. If you have stories about how people like that feel a sense of entitlement to monies for education, you might want to share them now.

Henrietta · Post by **Henrietta** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:45 pm

Fried, computer programming is not only a lucrative business, but it's actually possible to get your foot in the door with no 'higher ed' training. That doesn't hold true for all professions (I wouldn't wanna go to a OB/GYN that never went to Med school!). I also understand your questioning the importance of a college degree, as it's certainly no guarantee of a decent life and proves nothing about intelligence, capability, or work ethic.

That said, you're really missing the importance of supporting poor kids who want an education. My dad supported us on $10/hour so there was never enough money for me from him to go to school. Yeah, I worked at the same time, but not enough to live on & pay tuition. I had Pell Grants, Perkins Loans, and other scholarships the whole way.

My education led to a career, so now, not only do I not qualify for food stamps, but I can also donate money to one of the scholarship programs that helped me out when I needed it. So, yay free money for school!!