Pell Grants (Or, seriously though, Bush, wtf?)

[jack]

P.S. wtf did Carter, Regan, Bush Sr. or Clinton do about it. I'll tell you, jack shite! All the worlds’ woes don't fall at the feet of one idiot. Take some responsibility for it, when was the last time you donated a tax return or turned over your paycheck to help a college student you didn't know?
/rant

what are you telling me that i haven't heard before?

[Leaf]

P.S. wtf did Carter, Regan, Bush Sr. or Clinton do about it. I'll tell you, jack shite! All the worlds’ woes don't fall at the feet of one idiot. Take some responsibility for it, when was the last time you donated a tax return or turned over your paycheck to help a college student you didn't know?
/rant

what are you telling me that i haven't heard before?

I was waiting for that.

The funny thing about the whole college=money in your future thing is, I believe that people who enter any workforce with a higher level of education will inevitably make more money than those that don't. I wonder if Fried only attended highschool? I myself went to college for music, yet I now make more money than people on the floor of the plant, and I'd like to think that the things I learnt in school help me in my job today. I don't know many college or university educated people who have jobs that don't earn more money than those with lesser educations. Obviously, if you refuse to work, or try and pick and choose a career path, that might not work out, but I've just held the unscientific belief that higher education will equal a better standard of living in any one's life, provided they make an effort. Just my feeling on that. Now I see that there are those who feel it isn't worth the paper it's written on... which I can understand, but I'll probably stick to my altruistic point of view anyway.

[jack]

well, i don't think college degree=automatic good paying job.

everyone should have the opportunity to go to college as it provides a backdrop for changes that all young people inevitably face...leaving the nest and defining one's life in their own terms. it's great to be surrounded by many other people who are all in the same boat. even if they don't speak the same language, students can usually identify with each other on levels that transcend language, like personal responsibility, work ethic, love, music, culture, etc. college is one of the most wonderful experiences i was able to have, and i feel very fortunate for having gone through the whole experience, not just in terms of gaining education but in gaining perspective and experience.

sure, you don't have to go to college to be forced to deal with life. many people try to avoid responsibility by staying in college. i have the utmost respect for folks like hoblit who have beaten the odds by proving that you don't need a college degree to achieve success or a decent paying job. my point is that it's not about the piece of paper. it's about what you learn and take with you from the experience. hoblit is right, nobody cares at this point whether i graduated or not, but they care if i can design a good website, or i'm a quark wiz. it's not the piece of paper. it's what you know and how well you can communicate it.

[Fried]

The general tone of blame and some outright quotes are where I find the Bush hate speach ...
Justincombustion

This is exactly what the country DESERVES after voting they way they did.

JB

GWB said he was gonna and then did the opposite. in other words, he lied to us. (again.)

mkilly

Damn near everything he posted blames Bush for all the worlds problems.

15-16 puzzle
Where do I start.. why not the beginning.

You cannot become a doctor without attending college

So you think being a doctor is the only way to be a success? Gates dropped out of college before he became a doctor, the fool!

Pell Grants were not designed to be given to homeless drunks.

Ummm... I love when you get into a conversation; facts are not important at all to you. You better do a bit of reading on ALL of the people covered. HINT: Alcoholism is considered a disability and is enough to get a Pell.

Leaf

Dude, you can volunteer all you want, but you clearly still have disdain for those "lesser" than you.

Actually I have a great affection for those people. I was one of them. I was homeless and ate out of garbage cans/ or stole anything for food. When I say I volunteer, I am giving back to those that helped me out of the gutter. I understand how hard it truly is to go from the bottom to the top. So when I hear snotty over privileged kids bitching about not getting a free handout, it kind of pisses me off.

[edit] And it wasn't public money that made my recovery possible.

Henrietta, I follow your logic. I just think there are better ways but I do understand your opinion.

[Shite] The value of an education is not at debate for me. It is valueable. I just think it is something to be earned.

[jack]

[Shite] The value of an education is not at debate for me. It is valueable. I just think it is something to be earned.

well, i'll split the difference with you and say it's something that shouldn't be taken for granted. i think a free ride should be earned too. thats what scholarships are for. there are many young adults in situations they didn't ask for. i'm all up for at least trying to offer them some help to find a way out and better themselves. i'd rather see some of the money being used to bomb iraq and afghanistan and whoever's next on GWB's axis of evil hit list to be appropriated towards funding education. lets teach the kids instead of just saddling them with a credit card funded war and a bankrupt social security system. but i know that doesn't really contribute anything to the immediate GNP so thats out of the question.

[erik]

You cannot become a doctor without attending college

So you think being a doctor is the only way to be a success? Gates dropped out of college before he became a doctor, the fool!

Pell Grants were not designed to be given to homeless drunks.

Ummm... I love when you get into a conversation; facts are not important at all to you. You better do a bit of reading on ALL of the people covered. HINT: Alcoholism is considered a disability and is enough to get a Pell.

Success cannot be defined by only one field of study. I do not think that being a doctor is the only way to be a success, and I neither stated nor implied that. I *do* believe that you cannot be a doctor without going to college. The examples of non-college-graduate successful people you have listed so far only include people in specific fields (namely, computers). If a person wants to have a certain career, for example doctor, they will have to go to college.

I have done as much reading as I can on the subject of Pell Grants, and it is my understanding they were designed for undergraduate college students. If you could link me to a site that details how you can get a Pell Grant by being an alcoholic and not an undergrad, that would be useful.

[jb]

The value of an education is not at debate for me. It is valueable. I just think it is something to be earned.

And people who receive Pell grants don't earn their education? Is your education earned once it's paid for?

If you had received a Pell grant and gone to college, do you think that would have changed your life at all? Would you still have wound up in the gutter eating out of trash cans? I don't wish that on anybody. I wish you had stayed in school. You are obviously bitter and resentful now, because you had to scrape your way back into society.

Is the reason you didn't go to college because you wanted to but couldn't? Or is it because you just didn't like school?

You just "happened" to be good at programming, eh? You're leaving something out. You found "Teach Yourself C++ in 24 Hours" behind a dumpster and you were instantly good at programming, right?

I do give. I pay taxes. They're for Pell grants, among other things. It's my right AND MY DUTY to pay attention to where my taxes go and to speak up when I'm not happy with the way my government spends my money. You offend me with the implication that I should have no say in this, and by the implication that I'm doing nothing to help.

If you didn't use public assistance to get out of your hard times, then you're an idiot. That's what it's for, that's one of many reasons why we HAVE taxes.

That aid that's going to asian disaster relief is coming out of the taxpayer's pockets. As it should. And I will be paying close attention to make sure they give deeply and effectively. I can give extra for this specific purpose, but I've already given through my tax payments, 26 times this year. And I was glad to do so.

And just because GWB won the election is no reason not to continue to point out his lies and broken promises. It's our right and priviledge to continue to "whine" about that for the next four years. I didn't vote for him, so I get bitching rights.

If you voted for him, or didn't vote at all, it's a piss-poor argument you're using to try to quell dissent. It offends me that you imply that I should just shut up and take it.

In fact, I see it as my OBLIGATION to bitch and moan as much as I see fit about how he does his job. That's one of my jobs as a citizen. I'd be a fool not to point out his myriad faults, to open up a door for another stupid election decision based on ignorance. The argument that he won and we should just grin and bear it is stupid and makes you look stupid for promoting it.

That's what you did by commenting on our "George W Bush hate speech". You didn't rebut our comments, you didn't say "he didn't lie", you tried to compare his actions with past presidents-- a meaningless exercise, because their faults don't excuse his, nor do they excuse the lie you failed to deny. Then you tried to cast aside our complaints by labeling them, as if by labeling them you render them moot. Well, I call bullshit.

[Fried]

[Shite] The value of an education is not at debate for me. It is valueable. I just think it is something to be earned.

well, i'll split the difference with you and say it's something that shouldn't be taken for granted...

Agreed.

The value of an education is not at debate for me. It is valueable. I just think it is something to be earned.

And people who receive Pell grants don't earn their education? Is your education earned once it's paid for?

Ummm... the Pell people describe it as an entitlement.

If you had received a Pell grant and gone to college, do you think that would have changed your life at all? Would you still have wound up in the gutter eating out of trash cans? I don't wish that on anybody. I wish you had stayed in school. You are obviously bitter and resentful now, because you had to scrape your way back into society.

Is the reason you didn't go to college because you wanted to but couldn't? Or is it because you just didn't like school?

I went to college for a while (paid my own tution by the way). I am certainly not bitter, I just know how that half lives, better than most. I wouldn't change my past if I could. I love where I ended up!

You just "happened" to be good at programming, eh? You're leaving something out. You found "Teach Yourself C++ in 24 Hours" behind a dumpster and you were instantly good at programming, right?

Obviously not. I worked two jobs. I went into enormous debt. I put myself through school.

I do give. I pay taxes. They're for Pell grants, among other things. It's my right AND MY DUTY to pay attention to where my taxes go and to speak up when I'm not happy with the way my government spends my money. You offend me with the implication that I should have no say in this, and by the implication that I'm doing nothing to help.

Word

If you didn't use public assistance to get out of your hard times, then you're an idiot. That's what it's for, that's one of many reasons why we HAVE taxes.

an iddiot for not taking a handout when I could do it with out... interesting logic.

That aid that's going to asian disaster relief is coming out of the taxpayer's pockets. As it should. And I will be paying close attention to make sure they give deeply and effectively. I can give extra for this specific purpose, but I've already given through my tax payments, 26 times this year. And I was glad to do so.

Glad you like taxes, I like charities... either way.

And just because GWB won the election is no reason not to continue to point out his lies and broken promises. It's our right and priviledge to continue to "whine" about that for the next four years. I didn't vote for him, so I get bitching rights.


If you voted for him, or didn't vote at all, it's a piss-poor argument you're using to try to quell dissent. It offends me that you imply that I should just shut up and take it.

I voted a third party candidate, not that it is any of your business. I just hear the same crap in the same way from so many people without proof to back up statements like he lied. He may have said thing that turned out to be untrue, but that is entirely different than telling a lie.

In fact, I see it as my OBLIGATION to bitch and moan as much as I see fit about how he does his job. That's one of my jobs as a citizen. I'd be a fool not to point out his myriad faults, to open up a door for another stupid election decision based on ignorance. The argument that he won and we should just grin and bear it is stupid and makes you look stupid for promoting it.

That's what you did by commenting on our "George W Bush hate speech". You didn't rebut our comments, you didn't say "he didn't lie", you tried to compare his actions with past presidents-- a meaningless exercise, because their faults don't excuse his, nor do they excuse the lie you failed to deny. Then you tried to cast aside our complaints by labeling them, as if by labeling them you render them moot. Well, I call bullshit.

I love the fact that you bitch. Just pull you head out of the tribe so I can hear your voice.

[edit]I hate politics. But I love issues. I just like to try to keep the two seperate.

[jb]

He said he'd increase Pell grants. He decreased Pell grants.

Is that not a lie? That's not "something that turned out not to be true." That is a direct consequence of HIS ACTIONS in contradiction to HIS WORDS.

I think by working two jobs and not taking advantage of programs YOU PAID FOR VIA TAXES that you're an idiot, yes. If you ever worked a day before you fell into the gutter, then you paid for your "handout" through taxes.

And having your education paid for is not the same as earning an education by actually LEARNING. It's one thing to enroll in college, it's another thing to finish.

You continue to trail this thread along without actually saying anything that I can construe as a genuine argument. You falsely claim that our arguments have no facts behind them, when Marcus's introductory post both quotes GWB verbatim and provides quotes from analyses that address his lie.

I think you're trolling. I'm done with responses to your posts here.

JB

[Leaf]

I'm not.

Just pull you head out of the tribe so I can hear your voice

This kinda irked me man. What are you, the old wise man on the mountain? The poor me defence "I was in the gutter"...just sucks. We've all been down on our luck, had people die in our lives, have people dying right now. This isn't a competition, it's expression of opinons. No one is gonna win the opinion war.

Here's some random opinions on related topics:
1)I believe that a social system that takes care of it's citizens, it's environment and it's security is right.
2)My opinion is that if people want to do something and it inficts no physical harm on anyone or anything, they should be allowed to do it.
3)My opinion is that the strong should ALWAYS help the weak. Period.
4)You don't leave anyone behind, unless you're willing to be that person.
5) I don't care if people's actions or statements "hurt" people, because
6)I think people should take responisibility for how they respond to words and witnessing actions.
7) If you can't adapt your mind to other concepts or ideas, and just draw lines in the sand,.....well, we'd have a lot of lines.

• Dzammm!!! I should turn that into one of those annoying emails that you're supposed to send to ten friends or horrible pain will befall you... ok.. sideproject: Add to the cheesy annoying life lesson list.

[Adam!]

Awesomeness

Damn. I need all of that on a T-Shirt.

[mkilly]

mkilly

Damn near everything he posted blames Bush for all the worlds problems.

I blame Bush for not doing what he said he'd do; I blame Bush for not doing what I think he should've done and what I think he could've done. I don't blame Bush for the recession, but I do blame Bush for his reaction to the recession. Justifiably. My original post, the one that started this topic, I quoted him saying he was going to "continue to expand Pell Grants," and the New York Times article showed that he is doing nothing to expand Pell Grants. They have decreased in worth over the four years he's been in office, and he hasn't allocated more funds to the program, contrary to what he said he would do. So I blame him for that.

Alcoholism is considered a disability and is enough to get a Pell.

I'm almost positive you're wrong. Being in treatment programs for alcoholism, and having an income under the poverty line, is probably a way to get a Pell Grant. Please show me where I can claim to be a drunk and be given a check for $4,000.

[Adam!]

Please show me where I can claim to be a drunk and be given a check for $4,000.

There's a form you sign. Of course, it's null and void because you're most likely drunk when you sign it.

[Fried]

I think you're trolling. I'm done with responses to your posts here.
JB

So being a Troll is someone with a different opinion? You should probably never let a political thread get started, but if these threads are support rallies, then I am sorry I entered my opinion. I will resist posting in this forum in the future so you can all preach tolerance to each other in perfect harmony.

[Adam!]

You continue to trail this thread along without actually saying anything that I can construe as a genuine argument. You falsely claim that our arguments have no facts behind them, when Marcus's introductory post both quotes GWB verbatim and provides quotes from analyses that address his lie.
I think you're trolling. I'm done with responses to your posts here.
JB

So being a Troll is someone with a different opinion? You should probably never let a political thread get started, but if these threads are support rallies, then I am sorry I entered my opinion. I will resist posting in this forum in the future so you can all preach tolerance to each other in perfect harmony.

JB is perfectly clear: your trolling is obviously not your opinion, but the fact that you have made many posts designed to garner a response instead of making a reasonable attempt to support your assertions. A great example is your previous post: it is painfully obvious that you know what JB is saying, yet you feign ignorance in order to get a reaction. And here I am, reacting to troll-like behaviour. Argh! I should have just said:

I will resist posting in this forum in the future

Whoohoo!!

[erik]

So being a Troll is someone with a different opinion?

So if I misinterpret what two different people have said and then turn both misinterpretations into questions, I can try and make it look like people said things they never said?

[Leaf]

I think you're trolling. I'm done with responses to your posts here.
JB

So being a Troll is someone with a different opinion? You should probably never let a political thread get started, but if these threads are support rallies, then I am sorry I entered my opinion. I will resist posting in this forum in the future so you can all preach tolerance to each other in perfect harmony.

"You can't fire me!!! I quit!!!!!"

[Poor June]

You like Toby Kieth?!?

Yes, have an album or two...seen him in concert. I like Toby Keith. My dad loves NASCAR. I also dig the idea of church... but only some churches... so I can't TRUST all churches.

Pretty sure I"m not brainwashed...but maybe thats what they want me to think.

yea i kinda like toby keith 2.. my whole family loves nascar... i'm not huge on it... but all is cool (the church thing... sometimes)

[Caravan Ray]

Just to provide some contrast:

When I started university - all higher education was free in Australia. Students earned places based on merit - (school grades, etc.).

In my 2nd year at Uni, the Govt. brought in the Higher Education Contribution Scheme (HECS) - whereby students have to pay for their education - but they may defer payment until after they graduate and start to earn a decent wage. Payments are then made through the tax system (I have a Bachelors degree and a Masters degree - it took me approx 10 years to pay these debts off). There is also a system of social security benefits payed to students from low income families while they are full time students.

As with any system, there are problems and those who abuse it - yet generally I think our system is quite fair and equitable and works well. Whatever the system though - the important thing is that education must be available to everybody in society equally. When education is available only to the rich - then your country may find itself in the position where only the very rich may be elected President.

Oh, and by the way - I agree with Puce - can I order a "Thoughts of Chairman Leaf" T-shirt? You have another disciple, oh wise one.

...and furthermore, full credit to MKilly for continuing to be a beacon of intelligent discussion on these boards

[Hoblit]

Poor June, cool. I was pointing out that the middle ground is being stomped out. I'm liberal and come from a liberal family... that has interestests in common with others who are more conservative,traditional, etc... Good to hear that there are still others out there who aren't ready to change their lifestyles because somebody else would lump them into the other category based on those interests.

Also, thanks Jack. I appreaciate that, I have worked very hard in three different fields and have met moderate success in each one according to my skill set. Although, I live in some fear that if/when I start a new job... I have to start over..and that is humbling. But each time I do, I find myelf surpassing the former feild. So each turn has benifited me financially. I try to have confidence that this will always be true...but not having an education does linger in the back of my mind. My skill set, determination, and work ethic are all I have and I use it to the best of my abilities.

There is a guy here at work who is from Sudan. At first I thought he was joking but after further conversations I realized he was not. He cheats at college and describes a situation where most students at this school in fact cheat. They are comfortable with it as their argument is that is how real life is and that certain courses aren't relevant anyways and you just need to pass them. I'm floored by this. This doesn't take away my faith in schools all together, just that this type of thinking only perpetuates a rotten circle of ethics that does trickle into our workforce.

All I'm saying is that no matter how you get there, you have to work hard to get there. (even if that means you work hard in college to gain knowledge in your chosen field) Not JUST whatever it takes to get there. I just pray that my hard work will help keep me from going under.

now back to the currently scheduled flame war

[Leaf]

That is the key. Earn your way. It feels better.