PRESIDENTIAL DEBATES

[Leaf]

"As president, what would you do, specifically, in addition to or differently to increase the homeland security of the United States than what President Bush is doing?"

he replied with:

"Jim, let me tell you exactly what I'll do. And there are a long list of thing."

He followed this grammatical disaster NOT with an exact detailing of his plans, but with another multi-point attack on the President.

I totally agree. His first two answers (that was the second I believe) sucked ass. The first he was asked, directly, what would you do about X and he said " I tell you, but before I do.....thanks yada yada." He never even answered the freaking question. Then the one you mentioned happened, and I started thinking... shit... this guy is ADD and he's not getting to the point. Suddenly though, he started kicking ass with some serious points, and I started to get excited. As a foreigner, I saw hope. You want alliances, Kerry's your man. For the record, I think the world court idea is pretty poor, as I do not understand who the enforcing body for international law is. Now, having international law that is enforced in each country by it's own system works for me, cause then each citizen is held accountable by it's own country, and international law would be (I assume) decided by international bodies like the Un... that could work. But Bush's paranoid "they could try us" bit was compelling if you buy into the fear mongering.


New favourite Bush quote " The only way to defeat terror is by spreading FFFFFFFFFFFF (small pause) reedom."

Way to go jackass.

[roymond]

Was my post about actions over words mis-read to suggest I might support Bush? OK, body language and presentation is always something to consider, but it shouldn't blind us to other "qualities", especially actually performance. My point was that I have to give him the benefit of the doubt and look beyond his "image", then judge that against Kerry. I don't expect any surprises, as I've never liked Bush or what he does with virtually any issue.

I do this in the same light as when I read "Michael Moore is a big fat stupid white man" which I borrowed from a Bush fan I work with. And I'll see the Celcius 41.11 movie - probably. I'm interested in multiple perspectives. You know...multilateralism !!!

[Leaf]

I don't think you came off that way... you seemed like you were saying consider everything, which is true.

My rant was more about how important it is to listen and observe techniques and styles. I know many people who are ignorant, and are intimidated by men like Kerry because they are so skilled that they do not trust them, mostly because they can not relate, and my fear is that Bush's dumbing down technique will sway these people to miss that factual information, like 16 PERMAMENT military bases, and all that based on style.

Actually, I'm kinda saying the same thing you are in retrospect!!! Just from a different angle!

[the Jazz]

As a Canadian, who watched the debates TWICE and Jon Stewart, let me say this:

Kerry is an intelligent, caring, obviously good man. He seems to care not only about America, but the whole planet. He is the man for the job, and that was obvious to any half-way intelligent person.

As someone who has watched the same, and lived in Massachussetts for just about my entire life, let me remind you that this is the same John Kerry who has missed, what... 155 of 172 votes this year in the Senate, iirc. He gets paid over $150,000 a year to be half of this state's representation in the Senate (two senators per state), not to go campaigning for the job he really wants. This is where my taxes are going? He's not about to give back his paycheck, even though his wife is a bajillionaire.

The best thing about the debates for Kerry was that people got to see him in the same room at the same time with Dubya, because compared to Bush he looks good. Kerry is a Politician with a capital P, and he's good at seeming to care for the whole planet. I think maybe in courting the far-left and the independants he's actually loosened up a bit, and still he's not approaching Bush in the area of seeming like an actual person. It doesn't really matter much to me that Bush is a bad speaker, because plenty of good people are bad speakers who can still make good decisions. What I think matters is the reason he's a bad speaker – namely, that he is a gigantic dumbass.

And I'm so tired of people springing up all over the place to give the final word about Michael Moore. If you never watched TV Nation, and you never watched The Awful Truth, and all you know is Bowling and Fahrenheit (and maybe Roger & Me), I'd like to ask you to please shut the hell up. Actually this is kind of OT since nobody has posted here like this (so far), but I see the post about "Michael Moore Mentality" and it pisses me off. That's not his mentality. He doesn't ridicule people for just for being average. Ask yourself, how many "Bushisms" did he put into any of his movies? When has he said that he opposes Bush because Bush is stupid or a bad speaker? The people who have become his biggest fans do this. I wonder if he realizes that the people in Cambridge watch Bowling For Columbine and laugh at people in the movie who look funny or have an accent, and that makes a lot of normal people really hate him. Anyhow, enough of this tangent.

To sum up: Kerry is a classic example of douchebag by politician-ness, and Michael Moore was cooler before he got trapped in the crusade against Bush thing.

[Henrietta]

I swear that I remember George W. Bush campaigning in 2000 under the slogan "I'm a uniter, not a divider", but I've never seen our country so divided in the past 25 years as it is today:


A cute little old lady named Jane died of cancer this week. Her obituary in the paper read:

"Jane was outraged that any politician who would cut back cancer treatment options for Social Security recipients, who would invade a foreign country and then expect her grandchildren to pay the bills, could claim to be a 'compassionate conservative.' Once he became the nominee, she saw John Kerry as the candidate who would most conserve everything she valued. Jane fought to live long enough to be able to vote this November. To honor her memory, please do everything you can to elect John Kerry."

Then some anonymous called up her poor grieving widower and told him:

<i>"It's too bad she won't be able to vote for Kerry, and hopefully on the day that Bush gets elected she'll burn in hell!"</i>


http://www.madison.com/tct/home/topstor ... 45&ntpid=0
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/37 ... etail.html

[c hack]

while i respect your motivation, this election is entirely too important to risk four more years of status quo.

Jack, I think what Jim is trying to say is that either way, we've got 4 more years of the status quo. I guarantee you, whoever gets elected president, nothing will be done differently about Iraq. They both even said so in the debate. Kerry might not've gone into Iraq so quickly, but then again, he might've. Certainly doesn't make any difference now.

(and speaking of, when Kerry bashed Bush for his pre-emptive strike, all Bush had to say was "I received intelligence that I thought was true. I feared for the safety of the American people, and I erred on the side of caution." Why didn't he say that?)

Both candidates basically said "we have to convince the Iraqi people that we're looking out for their own best interest, and get the money flowing from their oil directly to them," and I believe both candidates basically lied. We know that Bush is in an orgy with oil companies all the American hyper-mega-global corporations, and I have no doubt that Kerry's in the same bed (shit, look who he married! You think he married for love?), or at least in the adjoining room getting stoned.

Maybe some domestic things will be different with Kerry, who knows. But I doubt it. Do you really expect a guy who's a bajillionaire to not give tax breaks to the rich? As far as I'm concerned, the only thing Kerry has over Bush is that he's taller, more confident, a bilion times better public speaker, and looks much more intelligent. The only thing Bush has over Kerry (in my mind) is a couple issues that he probably only believes in because his party tells him to.

I'm going to sleep. Wake me up when the next FDR comes around.

New favourite Bush quote " The only way to defeat terror is by spreading FFFFFFFFFFFF (small pause) reedom."

Leaf, when you make fun of the way a guy talks, that's like saying you can't find anything in the content of what he's saying to make fun of. C'mon, I know that's not true. Actually, if you take out "FFFFFFFFFFF (small pause) ," then it becomes a really stupid quote that you can make fun of. If Israel and Palestine were both as free and democratic as America, you bet your ass they'd still be blowing themselves up.

[jb]

Having read the trascripts of the debates this morning, I'm left liking each candidate less than I did before.
Both of them basically engaged in diversionary pandering. When Kerry was asked:

"As president, what would you do, specifically, in addition to or differently to increase the homeland security of the United States than what President Bush is doing?"

he replied with:

"Jim, let me tell you exactly what I'll do. And there are a long list of thing."

He followed this grammatical disaster NOT with an exact detailing of his plans, but with another multi-point attack on the President.

Kerry has a long way to go before he's as mushmouthed as the President.

As far as the "thank yous", that's pretty much tradition in these debates. They start out with a serious question, but the competitors first thank everybody involved-- provided they can remember everyone. If they don't, they look ungracious. It's a competition, and nobody wants to look like a dick.

And the "multi-point" attack was good enough for me as a list of the things he's going to do. I take it as a list of things that Kerry feels the President should have addressed but hasn't, which will be rectified during Kerry's term. Remember that this is a debate. Kerry must respond tactically to the questions, in order to keep Bush off guard or on the defensive. If he just gives a list of items he wants to address while in office, he opens a door for Bush to pick that list apart.

As for Kerry's voting record, that's such a simplistic, unthoughtful swipe. If he's been on the campaign trail all year and has voted about 20 times, then perhaps he's making sure to be present and accounted for when his vote really counts toward something the democrats want to achieve in congress.

If a vote is going to swing 90-10 one direction or the other, everyone knows in advance, so it's pretty safe for Kerry to be where we need him-- campaigning. If a vote is close enough that every vote counts, I bet Nancy Pelosi has Kerry's ass in his chair in the Senate chambers. It's at most a 6-hour flight for him from anywhere in the lower 48-- and they know in advance when something is likely to happen requiring his presence.

[Leaf]

"]New favourite Bush quote " The only way to defeat terror is by spreading FFFFFFFFFFFF (small pause) reedom."

Leaf, when you make fun of the way a guy talks, that's like saying you can't find anything in the content of what he's saying to make fun of. .

Hello. He was gonna say "Fear". The pause was him catching himself as he realized how politically incorrect it was to say it... but bet your ass that's a strategy, (one that actually makes sense).


I was n't making fun of how he was talking, as if lisps are something to mock. Does he have one? Not that I've noticed.

[Sober]

Sober, you have such a hate for George Bush that it's clouding your ability to think.

My ability to think is what has lead me to hate George W. Bush.

http://www.pickyourpresident.com/

[fluffy]

http://home.earthlink.net/~houval/gopconstrm.mov

[reve]

Leaf said:

How someone communicates those ideas, and the methods used indicate what they are truely thinking.

Methods, actions, reactions and expressions are just as scripted (by third parties) as the words themselves. Perhaps more so.

[Eric Y.]

ok watching president bush speak, it really frightens me to think that his actions and everything are carefully scripted.

"ok now you're going to make a goofy face and stumble over your words for three minutes, then say something that doesn't make sense"

[the Jazz]

As for Kerry's voting record, that's such a simplistic, unthoughtful swipe. If he's been on the campaign trail all year and has voted about 20 times, then perhaps he's making sure to be present and accounted for when his vote really counts toward something the democrats want to achieve in congress.

And what about something the Democrats don't give a shit about, that happens to be important anway? And what about discussion? What about any number of things that lawmakers get paid to do? I understand that it's reasonable to expect the man to spend a lot of time campaigning. But why should we pay him to do it? We just went through major budget cuts across the state, especially in education. A truly intelligent, caring, obviously good person whose wife is filthy rich would be ashamed to keep that money.

[jb]

As for Kerry's voting record, that's such a simplistic, unthoughtful swipe. If he's been on the campaign trail all year and has voted about 20 times, then perhaps he's making sure to be present and accounted for when his vote really counts toward something the democrats want to achieve in congress.

And what about something the Democrats don't give a shit about, that happens to be important anway? And what about discussion? What about any number of things that lawmakers get paid to do? I understand that it's reasonable to expect the man to spend a lot of time campaigning. But why should we pay him to do it? We just went through major budget cuts across the state, especially in education. A truly intelligent, caring, obviously good person whose wife is filthy rich would be ashamed to keep that money.

So what do you expect him to do?

[Kamakura]

Let me point you to a very interesting program on gerrymandering in texas. In effect the Democrats have no chance to win, in this and it seems, several other states.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/progr ... ment.shtml

[Sober]

http://mfile.akamai.com/8082/rm/democra ... /faces.ram

[roymond]

A truly intelligent, caring, obviously good person whose wife is filthy rich would be ashamed to keep that money.

What the hell does it matter that his wife is filthy rich? How does that enter into the picture about how he should perform his job or his campaign? Why do people feel that being rich is bad? How rich is Bono? How rich is Mick Jagger? How rich is rich? God forbid someone is able to be successful with the American dream (or married to it). I'm not talking about getting rich from selling products that kill people or mame children out of neglect or disregard. She didn't inherit a cigarette company, for god's sake (who KILL as many people as did die on 9/11 on a daily basis when their products are used AS DESIGNED!) So, where was I? Oh yeah...how rich is rich? Is it more than you. is it more than me? Is it more than rent+3 meals a day+some clothes+a computer? Is it too rich when you contribute enough in taxes to subsidize your school and the roads that lead to it? Is it too rich when you build a hospital for juvenile diabetes? or how about funding an art space for inner city students? or public radio? Most of these things come from private donors.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think rich people deserve hand outs or tax breaks or special treatment. I just don't get what it is that ruffles people about someone having money. And if you don't personally care about money, then why does it upset you so?

[jack]

roymond for president. he's smart, grounded, and he plays a mean ebow.

[roymond]

bleh. i take this shit too seriously. gotta relax. need more icecream.

[Leaf]

Ice cream.


and politics.



mmmmmmmm......


You know how to throw a party.


I Agree with your sentiments by the way.... someone should not be knocked for wealth. It's how they aquire it that matters.... unless it's me. I'm excempt .... cause my spelling is poor. ( wanted to type atrocphous but me don't spelt....actually, I'd rather type for five minutes about poor spelling than cut and paste it into a word spell checker, which would have been done by now.... where were we?

[Sober]

You also forgot to close your parenthetical.

[j$]

Hahahaha! Where's Jefff when you need him? [/sour] 8)