Reel-to-reel tape shortage?

Mogosagatai · Post by **Mogosagatai** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:28 pm

Here's my two cents:

Technology is a wonderful tool that allows people to better express their ideas. Without advanced technology, many incredible artists would not have the means to create what they envision.

However, use of technology should never be confused with talent. A truly talented musician should know when it feels right, regardless of what effects were used to reach that state.

Remember that song "Standing Outside a Broken Phone Booth (With Money in my Hand)"? The guy who made it deliberately put static-y white noise in the song, cuz it made it sound better. There's a time and place for "warmth" or "imperfection"--sometimes it can be perfect. Other times, the artist should try his/her best to eliminate all noise.

It's always about the feel, obviously. Anyone who says otherwise is not an artist. If you're chopping up sound waves and reducing white noise, that's great, if your music would sound better like that. And if not, that's also great, as long as that suits your music.

jack · Post by **jack** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:37 pm

would you really rather listen to a MIDI piano track over one recorded with a bosendorfer or a steinway?

Leaf · Post by **Leaf** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:43 pm

jack shite wrote:would you really rather listen to a MIDI piano track over one recorded with a bosendorfer or a steinway?

Only if it were accompanied by a Dr. Rhythm, obviously. And it goes without saying, Ashley sings the melody.

...or DOES she??

Southwest_Statistic · Post by **Southwest_Statistic** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:45 pm

jack shite wrote:would you really rather listen to a MIDI piano track over one recorded with a bosendorfer or a steinway?

Of course not, but that's a bad example. I would rather listen to a real piano naturally, but that has nothing to do with using Analog Tape or Digital to make the recording. By the way, I have no idea how I got the nickname "SteakSauce" in this thread, but I find it very funny.

jack · Post by **jack** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:46 pm

hehe. i have a dr. rhythm. but i hardly ever use it anymore. i found a better Reason.

of course, i have real congas too. and a real toy glockenspiel.

Phil. Redmon. · Post by **Phil. Redmon.** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:54 pm

So, like, i had a lot of time to think about this this weekend.

"Tubes are dead!" they cried.

There are a million places to buy tubes, & new tube amps come out all the time.

"Vinyl is dead!" they shrieked.

There is a fucking ton of new vinyl everywhere. Indies, majors, all genres.

"Tape is etc."

Somebody wealthy enough is gonna be just as outraged as, uh, half of us are.

I'm not a gonna sweat it.

Furthermore: Dr. Rhythm is sweet, but the Doc I want is Dr. Sample! I rocked a loaner for a while, and then left it onstage at a gig! B'd'oh!

jack · Post by **jack** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:07 pm

Southwest_Statistic wrote:
jack shite wrote:would you really rather listen to a MIDI piano track over one recorded with a bosendorfer or a steinway?
........ that has nothing to do with using Analog Tape or Digital to make the recording.

MIDI=Musical Instrument Digital Interface. it has everything to do with how it's recorded.

tonetripper · Post by **tonetripper** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:09 pm

.... and the king of the coined phrase "Steak Sauce" has arisen..... I think of it as a term of endearment SS........

No one is debating the editing digital argument (we all know editing in the digital dept. is way better) but the battle of digital vs. analog is a war that no one seems to return from unscathed. They are both mediums that can be embraced for desired results and they can cross over in the most wonderful of ways. Digital for it's ease (at points), editing, correction blah blah blah. Analog for the anomolous effect that you can get from it. I, personally, record all my tracks through a tube compressor running as an insert. I do this cuz I think the digital realm is too sterile and no plug-ins I've heard give that sound.

I've recorded records all recorded on 2 inch then mastered in Pro Tools and Digital Performer. I've recorded on ADAT (which sucks) then transferred back to 1/4". Recorded DA88s (pretty good early digital recording device) and mastered digitally. And now on a computer through A to D converters. My point being that I feel fundamentally that we can all love one another...... people..... love one another.....brothers, sisters..... (sorry a little Stones moment)

Analog is good. So is digital. A lot of Classic and new LP makers, producers, young and old, and engineers can't be wrong.

;p

Southwest_Statistic · Post by **Southwest_Statistic** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:22 pm

jack shite wrote:
Southwest_Statistic wrote:
jack shite wrote:would you really rather listen to a MIDI piano track over one recorded with a bosendorfer or a steinway?
........ that has nothing to do with using Analog Tape or Digital to make the recording.
MIDI=Musical Instrument Digital Interface. it has everything to do with how it's recorded.

Then be more specific, because it works in all directions and therefore I have no idea what you are talking about. To illustrate:

I can buy a totaly-real-stringed grand Piano with a MIDI interface. I can spew a perfected-MIDI-Piano track from a computer into the real Grand Piano and record the organic strings. I can also play a track on the real Grand Piano and have it sent to the computer where the digital notes are recreated with a synthisizer in a soundcard, though this seems completely pointless and I've never heard of anyone doing it before.

I can also sample each key off a Steinway piano and use a MIDI-SoundFont interface on my computer to play sounds of a Steinway out of my Yamaha Synthasizer. No matter what the output device (organic or synthetic), I have the option to record it to Tape or Digital so therefore in my mind MIDI has nothing to do with using Analog Tape or Digital on the final recording.

Leaf · Post by **Leaf** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:22 pm

jb wrote:
Leaf wrote:RADIOHEAD? Lameo example man, they suck.
Dude, what a stupid thing to say.

It's NOT stupid, it's an opinion.

I posted that thought, simply because how I felt about Josh's post wasn't totally clear to me as I was addressing MR. SS.(southwest STeaksauce man...you never had that???)

JoshyWoshy wrote:
leaf wrote: I'm referring to putting time into musician chops, for obvious reasons. It's all well and good to use technology to achieve a vision, and certainly all entertainment mediums seem to have benefitted, but you will NEVER be able to do that live. This is much more important to me than cutandpaste corrections to a track.

If Radiohead had this mindset, they'd still be banging out grunge tunes for screaming teenagers.

So, Josh is implying that my attitude that working on musical chops is WRONG??? That Grunge is WRONG? That trying to work something out that can be performed live is WRONG? What exactly are you saying? That this "mindset" of working at the craft of performance is WRONG? That Radiohead created studioart with no musical ability or craft? duh. That faking your performance is RIGHT? My attitude in no way detracts from the magic of the studio, its about using that magic to LIE. To do the "Ashley" for a current pop-culture example.

WTF.

For the record, I've heard very few radiohead tracks, and upon reflection, I don't really have the opinion that they "suck" (although I'm certainly entitled to my opinion, and telling me its "stupid" is not a very compelling or intelligent way to respond to that opinion...although the image of the band whining under the rock is ... pleasant.) But c'mon. How sterile do you want to be?

thehipcola · Post by **thehipcola** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:22 pm

Leaf wrote: BLAH BLAH BLAH - ROCK...it is nowhere near as interesting, unless it's big enough to have Radiohead pinned underneath.

wow..., you are so uninformed. But that was quite funny...

thehipcola · Post by **thehipcola** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:28 pm

Leaf wrote:...My attitude in no way detracts from the magic of the studio, its about using that magic to LIE.

It's only a lie if the CD cover says..."All the music contained herein was played live and can be played live on request without automated backing racks or extra musicians..." Otherwise, how is great studio production LYING?

and telling me its "stupid" is not a very compelling or intelligent way to respond to that opinion...?

Unless it's his opinion that your comment and/or you are stupid...then it's totally intelligent. I think calling something stupid counts as an opinion, doesn't it?

Leaf · Post by **Leaf** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:30 pm

TheHipCola wrote: It's only a lie if the CD cover says..."All the music contained herein was played live and can be played live on request without automated backing racks or extra musicians..." Otherwise, how is great studio production LYING?

Yeah, I'm uniformed.

Great production is one thing. It's a lie if you're moving shit around simply cause you could n't do it in the first place. I'm not talking about sequences, or midi, or effects, and damn it, I've done this myself!!!

I'm talking about justifying correcting a MISTAKE (as in MISS- TAKE) with arguements about how much kids will soak up the Ashley.

Now am I really being that unclear about my opinion, or are there a lot of defensive engineer's in the house?

Southwest_Statistic · Post by **Southwest_Statistic** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:37 pm

TheHipCola wrote:
Leaf wrote:...My attitude in no way detracts from the magic of the studio, its about using that magic to LIE.

It's only a lie if the CD cover says..."All the music contained herein was played live and can be played live on request without automated backing racks or extra musicians..." Otherwise, how is great studio production LYING?

Actually I plan on saying the following in my CD cover:

"The music contained on this CD represents the recent efforts of Shea Rial. A self-taught musician, singer, and studio technician. Everything was Recorded/Sampled & Digitally Perfected on his Personal Computer in a bedroom in his parents house."

Guitarist, Left Channel:
Shea Rial
Guitarist, Right Channel:
Shea Rial
Guitarist, Lead:
Shea Rial
Guitarist, Background:
Shea Rial
Guitar Programming & Perfecting:
Shea Rial
Drums:
Shea Rial
Drum Programming and Sync:
Shea Rial
Keyboard/Piano/Digital Noises & Effects Programming:
Shea Rial
Vocals/Digital Vocal Editing:
Shea Rial
Digital Effects Processing:
Shea Rial
Final Track Mastering, Programming & Digital Processing:
Shea Rial

I guess I'm just not scared enough that people will hate my music if they know I edited it.

jack · Post by **jack** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:45 pm

they'll just think "what a narcissist....."

thehipcola · Post by **thehipcola** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:46 pm

Leaf wrote:Great production is one thing. It's a lie if you're moving shit around simply cause you could n't do it in the first place. I'm not talking about sequences, or midi, or effects, and damn it, I've done this myself!!!

You are in the studio with the band. Drummer cannot for the life of him land the fill needed for the part. It's simple, but slightly off time and the pressure and ticking clock have melted this young starwannabe's ability to execute the fill. You've got all the drum hits "on tape", but not in the right spot. YOu can a)spend another $100 in time hoping he'll get it right, or b)you can spend $20 in time editing them to the right spots.

No brainer for me. The clock is ticking, time is money. And if you are in the producer's chair, or the artists chair, often the money isn't yours to begin with...as in, you gotta get the job done, on time, hopefully under budget.

I'm not a professional at all, but basic business sense tells you that at some point, tough decisions have to be made. Editing room floor and all that...

It's not LYING though...

Post by jb » Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:57 pm

Hey, let's reel this thread in yo, before I get too tempted to freeze it. I'm part of the problem, so I'm gonna shut up unless I have something useful rather than incendiary to say.

JB

obscurity · Post by **obscurity** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:03 pm

jack shite wrote:would you really rather listen to a MIDI piano track over one recorded with a bosendorfer or a steinway?

Yes. Next question?

Phil. Redmon. · Post by **Phil. Redmon.** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:03 pm

Phil. Redmon. wrote:So, like, i had a lot of time to think about this this weekend.

"Tubes are dead!" they cried.

There are a million places to buy tubes, & new tube amps come out all the time.

"Vinyl is dead!" they shrieked.

There is a fucking ton of new vinyl everywhere. Indies, majors, all genres.

"Tape is etc."

Somebody wealthy enough is gonna be just as outraged as, uh, half of us are.

I'm not a gonna sweat it.

Yeah, good thinkin'.

obscurity · Post by **obscurity** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:06 pm

Leaf wrote:
jack shite wrote:would you really rather listen to a MIDI piano track over one recorded with a bosendorfer or a steinway?
Only if it were accompanied by a Dr. Rhythm, obviously.

Leaf, I have disagreed with pretty much everything you've written in this thread, but managed to shrug my shoulders and stay out of it. But I cannot sit idly by while someone mocks the awesomeness that is the Dr. Rhythm drum machine line. Seriously. You can take my mixing desk, my fx unit, my mic, my virtual instruments, my virtual fx, my sequencer and even my computer itself, but you will never take my DR550 mkII until you prise it out of my cold dead fingers.

obscurity · Post by **obscurity** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:09 pm

jack shite wrote:
Southwest_Statistic wrote:
jack shite wrote:would you really rather listen to a MIDI piano track over one recorded with a bosendorfer or a steinway?
........ that has nothing to do with using Analog Tape or Digital to make the recording.
MIDI=Musical Instrument Digital Interface. it has everything to do with how it's recorded.

No, he's right - it has nothing to do with how it's recorded. It does, however, have everything to do with how it's played.

Leaf · Post by **Leaf** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:09 pm

Yes. I 've allowed my opinion about something to make things sound personal, and that IS not my intention at all. Sarcasm as a humourous diversion during a heated discussion is difficult in person, and down right completely impossible on a message board.

My only opinion on this topic is thus:

Ashley Simpson.

Not loops, great production, time management, budgets, art, whatever. AS a musician who works real hard at performance, I get personally frustrated at the multitudes of things I cant even do, and may never be able to do. So I've allowed that attitude to colour my comments here, when Southwest, JB, Josh or HC ar not the issue: the issue is my personal irritation at people who present a work of art, using technology (and an engineer, not their own skill) to make it sound like they are doing something they are not. This offends my sensiblilites, and that's really my problem.

And for the record, The Hip Cola is a fantastic musician and engineer, and producier, at ABSOLUTELY no time did I want to imply otherwise.

Sarcasm... bleah.

EDIT: (can...not....resist.....can....not....resist.......)

Obsurity: Chomp on it.