Where would you move to if <not your candidate> wins in November?

[Caravan Ray]

I don't want to abandon the US, and being a white middle-class guy I hardly suffer personally from its class and racial divides.

And that is why you must abandon the USA Roy.

You - like me - are privileged white guys who have been the absolute winners of the world in the last century.

Good on us.

I - have the misfortune of being an environmental engineer for the last 30 years of my professional career. And I can see - while I am a winner - it is at the expense of the planet. I am a privileged white guy with a daughter who would like to leave my offspring with a better place.

That isn't going to happen because morons in the the worlds largest economy are voting for a bloke who denies global warming.

FFS - Americans....please fucking grow up...

[Caravan Ray]

What does have an impact on my local life is that I can go outside, enjoy a mild climate

Your President is a climate change denier. He has withdrawn the USA for the Paris Accord. This should make you very, very angry. If it doesn't - you really need to read a bit more about global warming. I would be happy to help you.

Of all the things I am angry about - global warming is the big one.

[sleepysilverdoor]

I spent nearly a decade working as a professional meteorologist. I'm currently a hydrologist in the southeastern US. My job, and especially this time of year, is dominated by taking the distribution of rainfall patterns and using that forecast river stages as they route downstream.



Those extremely anomalous, devastating rainfall totals from Harvey in the map above? I'm the one who created them by compiling 4 days' worth of radar data and thousands of rain gages. Same is true for Florence, Irma, Michael, Matthew, Maria...

Believe me -- I don't need an explanation of climate change and its impacts on daily life. I live it every day. And is that an appeal to authority. Yeah probably but I think in this case it's relevant to my argument rather than it just being from an arbitrary guy on songfight.

That said:

Climate change isn't Trump's fault. It's the fault of the fact that we built an entire global civilization based on massive energy consumption. To dramatically reduce the amount of carbon emissions throughout the world would inherently crash the global economy. There are no renewables that have anywhere near the energy density, flexibility, or reliability provided by fossil fuels. Look into the concept of EROEI "energy return on energy invested".

The Paris Accord never had any teeth. It's a feel-good arrangement that made us able to pat ourselves on the back and pretend like we were going to be able to stop this. It gives us the ability to trust that our leaders are going to be able to do something to stop those big bad corporations while we do absolutely nothing ourselves to change our lifestyles except for token gestures that really don't make that big of a difference.

Am I a climate change denier? No, not by any means. But I am a climate change defeatist who sees that if it *were* possible to stop the feedback loop, it should have been done back in the Carter era. I'm also a complete doomer who largely picked up aforementioned foraging skills because I don't want to rely so much on industrialized agriculture - an industry extremely threatened by climate change.

If you want more info on my general worldview, my lyric sheet to " Higher and Higher" was not me putting on a character.

Do you want to reduce climate change? Quit buying products made overseas. Buy local. Go vegetarian. Start gardening. Quit traveling so much. And that last one brings us full circle: unless you're pulling a Greta Thunberg and crossing the Atlantic by boat - I believe international travel for the sake of international travel is a waste of resources. Yes, it makes you grow as a person. Yes, it expands your worldview. But for 99% of human history it was no more than a luxury - a privilege peculiar to our times -- and for 99% of the human future, it will be no more than a luxury. The future is local. Globalism itself is inherently a fragile state of affairs enabled by what? Cheap, abundant fossil fuels. And global oil production peaked 15 years ago...if it were easy to break that, we wouldn't be fracking or drilling the bottom of the oceans.

To quote my own lyrics from two weeks ago: "call me a Cassandra cause I've always been a doomer"

[Caravan Ray]

Believe me -- I don't need an explanation of climate change and its impacts on daily life.

I apologise. My post was an angry drunk post that was not aimed at you personally. My patronising tone was not helpful.

[Caravan Ray]

To dramatically reduce the amount of carbon emissions throughout the world would inherently crash the global economy. There are no renewables that have anywhere near the energy density, flexibility, or reliability provided by fossil fuels. Look into the concept of EROEI "energy return on energy invested".

This is where we are going to have problems.

That is complete 100% bollocks.

Don't make shit up.

[Caravan Ray]

I'm also a complete doomer who largely picked up aforementioned foraging skills because I don't want to rely so much on industrialized agriculture - an industry extremely threatened by climate change

Yep - we probably have a lot in common.

The big thing for me is my daughter. Are you a parent? I find it appalling that I may leave my daughter with a less pleasant world than I grew up in.
I am 53. She is 16.
I think making her life better rather than increasing my own wealth is now my ambition.

Step 1. Stopping morons in the USA electing a moron.

If the USA descends further into fascism - my daughters life in Australia life will decline - please don't do that.

[Caravan Ray]

To dramatically reduce the amount of carbon emissions throughout the world would inherently crash the global economy. There are no renewables that have anywhere near the energy density, flexibility, or reliability provided by fossil fuels. Look into the concept of EROEI "energy return on energy invested".

This is where we are going to have problems.

That is complete 100% bollocks.

Don't make shit up.

And just to repeat - so it is 100% clear - the west coast of your continent is on fire. Like Australia was in January. Anyone who says it has nothing to do with a global warming is a stupid cunt.

[sleepysilverdoor]

That isn't 100% bollocks and to proclaim otherwise is to proclaim something based entirely on faith. Unfortunately, it's an article of faith shared by a lot of people, largely as a result of hundreds of years of endless technological progress *seemingly* able to solve all problems...

With as much interest as there is in getting off of the more convenient, more portable, more energy dense fossil fuels, if there was a *feasible* way to get it done that wasn't economically painful on a grand scale, it would be well underway already. Instead we're literally drilling for oil at the bottom of the sea and by dissolving the bedrock into a slurry pretty much and extracting it that way. It's like squeezing oil out of a sponge.

It's like telling a methamphetamine addict that they have to live on black tea. No matter how much tea you drink, that caffeine is not going to give you the energy, euphoria, productiveness, paranoia, and delusional thinking that meth will.

You want a society with a lower energy footprint? Cool. You're looking at a significantly more agrarian society with slower transit options, less availability of consumer goods, higher prices for things, and a whole lot more rail and river travel. Car dependent locations like much of suburbia will have to radically change their economic model, because in a world powered by renewables, we're not going to be able to just gas up.

Electric cars you say? Well, you've got to get the power from somewhere. Geothermal doesn't work everywhere. Hydroelectric doesn't work everywhere. Solar is nice...when it lasts, but to roll it out at that scale would require covering tons and tons and tons of land with unthinkable amounts of solar panels which must be mined and manufactured...and much of those richest mines? In China. Who don't care about environmental regulations. Nuclear? Sure, we can do nuclear plants, but those rely on continued maintenance essentially forever and also are generally dependent on an external power grid. Are we going to hand our great great great great grandchildren a bunch of 200 year old nuclear facilities that they have to maintain OR ELSE? That's a shit gift to leave to our descendents. Am I missing any renewable sources with a low carbon footprint?

The West Coast of our continent is indeed on fire, and it's blatantly obvious why.

I cannot stop people from voting for Trump. And our carbon emissions as a country rose just as much under Obama, so him being a fascist has very little to do with climate change, as stupid as a cunt as he is. The Bolsonaro administration's treatment of the Amazon is far more harmful than anything the Trump administration is doing regardless.

Yes. I have children. I teach them about useful trees and plants so they can know the first thing about their natural environment. Their *local* natural environment. We compost. We garden. We "let it mellow" so they can learn the importance of water conservation. I obviously teach them "the old ways" so they don't think our hypermodern life is anything but a historical abberation. I'd like to teach my son how to build a solar water distiller when he gets a bit older because he has a very engineering based mind. I get your concern.

But action on this clearly doesn't start at the government level. It starts at the personal level. And there are too many hopeless people. So live the truth you know, quit telling people to "jetset around and experience other countries" when that very act itself is a carbon intensive luxury, and quit preaching to people on the internet about how they need to somehow change the groupthink of 300 million of their countrymen like we can.

[grumpymike]

Well, I wasn’t going to move, but now the prospect of the next ~46 days of toxic political discourse makes me want to.

[Caravan Ray]

Well, I wasn’t going to move, but now the prospect of the next ~46 days of toxic political discourse makes me want to.

It will be fine Mike. Your 250 year old Constitution is working perfectly. Just as the slave owners who wrote it meant it to be.

[Caravan Ray]

That isn't 100% bollocks and to proclaim otherwise is to proclaim something based entirely on faith. Unfortunately, it's an article of faith shared by a lot of people, largely as a result of hundreds of years of endless technological progress *seemingly* able to solve all problems...

With as much interest as there is in getting off of the more convenient, more portable, more energy dense fossil fuels, if there was a *feasible* way to get it done that wasn't economically painful on a grand scale, it would be well underway already. Instead we're literally drilling for oil at the bottom of the sea and by dissolving the bedrock into a slurry pretty much and extracting it that way. It's like squeezing oil out of a sponge.

It's like telling a methamphetamine addict that they have to live on black tea. No matter how much tea you drink, that caffeine is not going to give you the energy, euphoria, productiveness, paranoia, and delusional thinking that meth will.

You want a society with a lower energy footprint? Cool. You're looking at a significantly more agrarian society with slower transit options, less availability of consumer goods, higher prices for things, and a whole lot more rail and river travel. Car dependent locations like much of suburbia will have to radically change their economic model, because in a world powered by renewables, we're not going to be able to just gas up.

No. That is absolute bollocks. Please stop repeating it It is Trumpian nonsense.

Electric cars you say?
No - I didn't say. But have your rant anyway

Well, you've got to get the power from somewhere. Geothermal doesn't work everywhere. Hydroelectric doesn't work everywhere. Solar is nice...when it lasts, but to roll it out at that scale would require covering tons and tons and tons of land with unthinkable amounts of solar panels which must be mined and manufactured...and much of those richest mines?

..wait...just stop...

WTF?!?!?

Jeez louise.


I have no words....

In China. Who don't care about environmental regulations. Nuclear? Sure, we can do nuclear plants, but those rely on continued maintenance essentially forever and also are generally dependent on an external power grid. Are we going to hand our great great great great grandchildren a bunch of 200 year old nuclear facilities that they have to maintain OR ELSE? That's a shit gift to leave to our descendents. Am I missing any renewable sources with a low carbon footprint?

...... This is why Mr Trump is your president obviously. I don't understand a word of this nonsense.

The West Coast of our continent is indeed on fire, and it's blatantly obvious why.

Global warming

I cannot stop people from voting for Trump. And our carbon emissions as a country rose just as much under Obama, so him being a fascist has very little to do with climate change, as stupid as a cunt as he is. The Bolsonaro administration's treatment of the Amazon is far more harmful than anything the Trump administration is doing regardless.

Really?!?!?

Yes. I have children. I teach them about useful trees and plants so they can know the first thing about their natural environment. Their *local* natural environment. We compost. We garden. We "let it mellow" so they can learn the importance of water conservation. I obviously teach them "the old ways" so they don't think our hypermodern life is anything but a historical abberation. I'd like to teach my son how to build a solar water distiller when he gets a bit older because he has a very engineering based mind. I get your concern.

Teach them that their government are cunts. That is the important lesson.

But action on this clearly doesn't start at the government level.

NO!@!!!! FUCK OFF!!!!!

This is the whole point of this thread. Me SCREAMING at you that that this is at the government level and you fuckers cannot sit and say it is not your fault that this fuckwit is the President of the USA. It is YOUR FAULT. Your voted for him. Or if you didn't - you didn't stop the people who did. IT IS YOUYR FAULT AND YOU HAVE TO FUCKING FIX IT.

[Caravan Ray]

Solar is nice...when it lasts, but to roll it out at that scale would require covering tons and tons and tons of land with unthinkable amounts of solar panels which must be mined and manufactured...and much of those richest mines? In China.

Where are you getting this shit from? Seriously? WTF?!?!?

This is quite scary the that people on Songfight are now regurgitating this crap.


Sleepy SilverDoor -

you seem like a nice chap but all this stuff you are posting is just bollocks. Seriously.

I don't know what I can say to make Americans not believe bollocks. But...

Please Americans - stop believing bollocks.

[sleepysilverdoor]

Where am I getting it? About a decade of obsessing over the topic and an understanding of thermodynamics. Explain to me how we can redo our transportation and energ manufacturing industries on solar. I'd love to hear it in terms other than "you're an idiot, where'd you get this garbage"

Give me a reply that contains well reasoned arguments other than "fuck you I'm stupid and you're an idiot for not agreeing with me" and you might be better at persuading people.

I gave you a list of reasons why different alternative energy sources are impractical as replacements for fossil fuels...and you dismiss it all out of hand as "Trumpian nonsense" . What a thought stopper. Did you seriously interpret all that as "drill baby drill, America fuck yeah?"

Yes, Bolsonaro's environmental policies in Brazil right now are more actively harmful than anything led by the Trump administration. Have you spent any time looking into how other nations other than just this one cause environmental damage, or do you continue to paradoxically be an advocate for "global living to expand your perspective" while your perspective consists of "big bad USA with fascist asshole Trump ruins the rest of the world".

I didn't vote for Trump, nor do I like him. But the opposite of support doesn't mean blindly raging at people on the internet who refuse to blanket denouce him without a further thought.

You didn't even read a word I wrote. " wtf, no, just stop, you're wrong, this is why trump is your president, I don't even understand this". Of course you don't understand it, it's so far out of your intellectual comfort zone of waiting for government salvation while angrily saying "they must do something! I want to save the environment!". How was I supposed to stop people from to vote for trump anyway? Firebomb voting facilities in red districts? Do an EMF pulse by CNN and Fox so they'd be unable to broadcast about him so much? Somehow stop Comey from dropping damaging Intel on Hillary Clinton a week before the election?

No shit climate change is the reason for the worsening fires and the fact that we just ran out of names on the hurricane name list with two and a half months to go or tidal flooding keeps getting worse or the entire damn biosphere seems to be collapsing. You just seem to want to scapegoat Americans and trump the godawful horrible planet destroyer rather than recognizing that that's an absurdly simplistic view.

I fully expect you to respond telling me that "no you're stupid what the fuck is this even I can't oh my god you idiot" , and I'm at the point where I'm convinced that I'm arguing with a brick wall. And that's fine cause obviously you are too. So you're going to reply, get the last word in, insult me again rather than properly debating in good faith, and then lose faith in the songfight community because we all don't think like you.

[Caravan Ray]

Where am I getting it? About a decade of obsessing over the topic and an understanding of thermodynamics. Explain to me how we can redo our transportation and energ manufacturing industries on solar. I'd love to hear it in terms other than "you're an idiot, where'd you get this garbage"

You said:
There are no renewables that have anywhere near the energy density, flexibility, or reliability provided by fossil fuels.
[/quote]
That is bollocks

[Caravan Ray]

To dramatically reduce the amount of carbon emissions throughout the world would inherently crash the global economy.

This is the sentence you wrote the offended me the most


It is absolute bollocks.

[sleepysilverdoor]

The global economy is dependent on extremely stupidly high amount of energy inputs, is it not?

That's why I followed that by touching on the relative portability and energy density of alternatives.

International commerce is primarily driven by cargo planes, freighters, resource extraction, and manufacturing. What energy inputs are most used in these sectors?

[Caravan Ray]

Start at stationary energy for fucks sake

[Caravan Ray]

The global economy is dependent on extremely stupidly high amount of energy inputs, is it not?

That's why I followed that by touching on the relative portability and energy density of alternatives.

International commerce is primarily driven by cargo planes, freighters, resource extraction, and manufacturing. What energy inputs are most used in these sectors?

Every thing you say is nonsense. You really should stop.

[sleepysilverdoor]

You didn't answer my question. What is stationary energy? From the NZ EPA:

"The stationary energy sector includes all fossil fuels (gas and coal) used in electricity generation and in the direct production of industrial heat, as well as geothermal energy. It does not include energy used for transport, emissions from industrial processes, or heating in commercial or residential facilities (emissions from these sources are considered elsewhere under the ETS)."

That has nothing to do with my question. Home heating, lighting, etc can realistically be done using solar. But that is not international commerce.

So answer the question.

[grumpymike]

It will be fine Mike. Your 250 year old Constitution is working perfectly.

Ugh, that’s the problem. The first amendment means we all get to yell at each other at the top of our lungs about things we feel very strongly about.

[Caravan Ray]

And the 2nd one gives you guns!!!! Win-win!!

[Caravan Ray]

You didn't answer my question. What is stationary energy? From the NZ EPA:

"The stationary energy sector includes all fossil fuels (gas and coal) used in electricity generation and in the direct production of industrial heat, as well as geothermal energy. It does not include energy used for transport, emissions from industrial processes, or heating in commercial or residential facilities (emissions from these sources are considered elsewhere under the ETS)."

That has nothing to do with my question. Home heating, lighting, etc can realistically be done using solar. But that is not international commerce.

So answer the question.

Stationary energy makes things. That is what drives international commerce. Making things. Moving things around (ie. non -stationary energy) is a smaller sub-set of that. There is no reason why all of the worlds stationary energy cannot be supplied by renewables. The technology has been available for decades. To suggest otherwise is simply nonsense.