Flame On

[erik]

We haven't had much need for this until now, but since the beast has reared it's ugly head, let's use this thread for "heated arguments" that arise in a thread that has a purpose, like Roymond's "Cool Instruments" thread which is quickly becoming not at all cool, and not at all about instruments.

[erik]

5) Eric will debate anything and then later claim he didn't say it.

Show me where I said something, then denied having said it.

Well there's...

Could you show me a link to a Casio or Yamaha synth that provides tutorials on how to use all aspects of it; connected to a computer, with filters, envelopes, pitch-shift, delay, EQ and reverb; with 4 loudspeakers and both switches and faders that accomodates up to 6 people and acts as a digital sampler (with memory banks and looping, stretching, pitch-shifting and reverse playing) and real-time mixer that costs less than the Cybersongosse?

And...

The synth you linked to doesn't even come close to having all the features of the Cybersongosse.

Or...

the fact that the thing is a bad-ass sampler and a mixer

Then you reversed your position or "flip/flopped" if you will when you said..

Yeah, but I didn't make any of those claims.

Like I said before, if someone asks me to defend a point I didn't make, I will tell them that I will not defend that point because I did not make it. Here is the entire quote in context:

Gosh Eric, you really showed me. I wasn't aware it could do all of that. But then there's always this. http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=k ... id/702210/

Now maybe you can show me kid that cares about, let alone has the capacity to learn about the rest of what the Cybersongosse can do. I'm guessing the child would be right around your age. Or maybe you can show me the parent that wants shell out whatever that contraption costs when there's no guarentee their child will be playing with it a month from now. Oh, and if you can have one shipped here from Europe for less than the Yamaha don't let anyone know, because you would be breaking the law.

Yeah, but I didn't make any of those claims. You claimed Yamaha and Casio made the same thing for less. They really don't. The synth you linked to doesn't even come close to having all the features of the Cybersongosse.

"Those claims" I was referring to points that you were bringing up about whether the kid would be interested, or whether this thing is affordable for one family. There can be no other "claims" I am referring to except for the ones that were made by you in the section that I quoted; the sentence doesn't make any sense unless I'm referring to claims that were made by you. The next three sentences reinforce what I had already suggested, namely that Casio and Yamaha don't make the "exact same thing for less money".

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and suppose that you are trying to be funny in all of this, rather than quoting me out of context to be purposefully misleading or (worse yet) unable to read for content.

[roymond]

asshole

[bz£]

...Roymond's "Cool Instruments" thread which is quickly becoming not at all cool, and not at all about instruments.

This thread has flip-flopped and now owes me four thousand dollars.

[Mostess]

May I pile on?

All this interest in something I said totally off the cuff and in jest almost a week ago that no one had any interest in until someone stumbled across it today.

== "I don't care for my credibility and do not understand the nature of messageboards."

Anyone who plays the "I Was Only Joking" game has no right to accuse anyone (especially the fantastically sharp 15-16 Puzzle) of intellectual dishonesty.

[Leaf]

I know that I will most definitely always read this thread.

And I like your tune... "I was only joking"... did you write it?

uh..not to throw this thread off topic.

Flamtardo. Could you call the thread "flamtardo" Erik? C'mon...it's a good title...

[jack]

i kind of like the "flame on" title, as a play on the tired as hell "game on" expression.

and if you disagree, well fuck you.

[frankie big face]

I love it when people who don't know anything about teaching music or children tell people who do (or have done) it for a living what works and what doesn't work. I didn't take a close look at that thingamajigee, but I can tell you, Dan-O, that just about any kid in elementary school would love an opportunity to work on one.

I know a seasoned teacher (band director) who firmly believes we ought to stop teaching kids how to play the clarinet and start teaching them how to use a sequencer. And while I don't agree with him entirely, I think learning how an entire band or orchestra is supposed to sound <i>prior to</i> learning the clarinet would be pretty fucking valuable.

And now for some individual flogging. I'll start with some ribbing and then increase the flogging:

B) A "beginner" instrument, for a kid in elementary school, will most likely be provided by the school.

Ha! Where did you go to school? This is highly unlikely in the modern world.

Now maybe you can show me a kid that cares about, let alone has the capacity to learn about the rest of what the Cybersongosse can do.

This was my first sign that you are an idiot and know absolutely nothing about kids. Worse, you basically demean them with this one sentence, which makes you an asshole and unfit to ever teach them, so I hope you are an accounting major or something even more boring.

3) "I guess in the end, anything used to raise a child's interest in music can be considered a good thing."

Not really. (I started typing a bunch of things and then thought "what's the point.")

4) The Cybersongosse might be useful in a classroom environment if the school could afford it, and the teacher could use it, and the kids didn't forget what they learned from week to week during the fifteen minutes or so they actually got to spend with it, and of course, if they didn't break it first.

Again, way to make the assumption that kids are so retarded, they couldn't possibly use something without breaking it.

5) Eric will debate anything and then later claim he didn't say it.

It's Erik, with a "k." And mostly, he debates stupid things people post.

6) You shouldn't spend $600 on a beginner's cello, you should buy the small one that's really cute and costs less.

Way to sum up JBB's excellent advice about renting an instrument correctly sized for your child by making him sound like an idiot. For your child, find the least cute, biggest, most expensive one you can find.

Idiot.

[Leaf]

i kind of like the "flame on" title, as a play on the tired as hell "game on" expression.

and if you disagree, well fuck you.

NO FUCK YOU.





kidding...kidding...


I was kidding about the title change too... I wouldn' want to offend the fantastic four.

[blue]

I love it when people who don't know anything about teaching music or children tell people who do (or have done) it for a living what works and what doesn't work. I didn't take a close look at that thingamajigee, but I can tell you, Dan-O, that just about any kid in elementary school would love an opportunity to work on one.

kids love the opportunity to bang pans together, too. i posted some crap in the other thread that basically came down to: the unit might teach the basics of synthesis, but has no capacity for teaching music in any classical sense. (nor is it advertised or advised as anything other than a platform for learning about synthesis, sequencing, sampling, and sound manipulation)

Now maybe you can show me a kid that cares about, let alone has the capacity to learn about the rest of what the Cybersongosse can do.

This was my first sign that you are an idiot and know absolutely nothing about kids. Worse, you basically demean them with this one sentence, which makes you an asshole and unfit to ever teach them, so I hope you are an accounting major or something even more boring.

well.. do you really think kids are gonna come away from this unit with more than the knowledge that the red knob makes something more squeaky and the green knob hurts their ears? before you go making assumptions that Dan is saying kids are idiots, mebbe you should look into what the Cybersongosse is and does.

i got Amber's kids a nice electronic MIDI keyboard for xmas 2 years ago, along with all the starter books and whatnot.. taught them a couple little tunes, etc - but for 18 months the sole purpose of the unit was to hit the demo songs key and dance in a circle around it.

as i said in my other post, the act of directed learning (as i'm sure erik and frankie know), requires attention and repitition - and most kids will be interested in just about anything for the length of time that it provides amusement.

i'd bet that most 5 year olds would be super quick to pick up and remember which buttons to push to get the music to start, then they'd prolly be equally quick to find some pleasing settings and remember how to get to them, so yeah, they're learning the basic operation of the Cybersongosse.. but does that have anything to do with learning music? (not really, in my opinion)

you guys are being hypercritical (not that dan's helping) of what are some pretty reasonably cynical arguments of the Cybersongosse's usefulness in a teaching environment.

or mebbe i'm missing the point and this is just about good ol' flaming.

[frankie big face]

from the pdf I just found:

"Music and sound education: the instrument is
supported with more than 300 individual and group games
(auditory awareness, listening, sound memorisation,
recognition, realization, improvisa-tion…) organized in 3
levels (nursery, school age, adult). All these games, their
functions and practice (rules, technic elements, used sounds)
are described and commented in the user booklet.

The Cybersongosse offers a wide range of practical uses
to aid in all creative, expressive and educational purposes
where sound and music are involved. Its ease of use and
short learning time makes it an excellent choice for all ages
and any group-orientated pedagogic framework. Each
pedagogic aspect is defined and explained but remains
opened to personal experiments and practices.
The Cybersongosse instrumental and pedagogic
“modular approaches” allow users to focus on any practice
or level depending on their context and aims to retain full
control and maximum flexibility.
Thus:
- There is neither determined social origin nor specific
age required to practice on the Cybersongosse (children,
teenagers, adults...) nor preferred background (school,
community art center, hospital...)
- The creative, expressive, learning and discovering
steps of use can be practiced at different levels with
seamless interaction:
1 - sound expression: radiophonic style, improvisation,
sound stories and sceneries… (learning from hands-on
experience)
2 - musical creation: opened to everyone but requiring
further knowledge (timing constraints, modes of expression)
Thus “musical education” appears either by collective
playing, either by applied-knowledge during a course of
study for young musician lead by an instructor."

Obviously, it's only as good as the teacher delivering the instruction, but I can think of quite a few uses right off the top of my head. I'm not saying this machine can replace traditional music education, but it seems like a viable tool.

Pots and pans can be too if they're used properly.

[frankie big face]

well.. do you really think kids are gonna come away from this unit with more than the knowledge that the red knob makes something more squeaky and the green knob hurts their ears?

with a good teacher, yes.

you guys are being hypercritical (not that dan's helping) of what are some pretty reasonably cynical arguments of the Cybersongosse's usefulness in a teaching environment.

unless you (or Dan-O) have some real knowledge of what actually takes place in a "teaching environment," it's pretty hard to make an argument that will convince me. it's too complicated to get into and not worth the time, but the kids you deal with at home aren't the same kids we deal with at school despite the fact that they occupy the same bodies. dancing around Le Cybersongosse will not be tolerated!

[jack]

i'll bet frank is one of those mean old music teachers. no mr. holland.

[Poor June]

i think it can be a pretty cool tool to have in a class room... but it's like a piano for example... some kids aren't gonna give two shits... and never get past 'settings, and hitting random keys'... and some kids... are gonna wanna learn it... or put more effort into doin' so...
wether i think 5 year olds should have it... i'm in question i still don't think it is somethin' that can replace learning a real instrument... but i do think... it would help any kid willing to put the time into it...
and having someone teach them that knows something about it...

and like jack said... really mean scary teachers make everything easier to learn... cause you're scared not 2 O_o