I'm thinking of enlisting

Mogosagatai · Post by **Mogosagatai** » Wed May 10, 2006 7:30 am

::EDIT: Oh the confusion! This statement was in response to Catch's.::

Nope, unless you mean on some deeper moral level or something. Phil was saying not to do because the army and the gov't that runs it are a bad system to be a part of.

But then Sober headed that off with, "Well, why's it stupid to join a bad system?" And, yeah, that's a good point--I mean, pretty much all major systems run by people are, well, bad, when you get down to it. Sober said he's doing it to better his musicianhood, which can be a noble enough cause.

Then a few comments were made and now I'm telling a story like it happened two years ago. Annnd... end scene.

jimtyrrell · Post by **jimtyrrell** » Wed May 10, 2006 7:35 am

I auditioned for a Marine recruiter once, back in '88 or so. He told me I probably wouldn't get into the band, but based on my ASVAB score (a vocational test they gave us in school) they could put me on a nuclear sub right out of Basic. I didn't take him up on it.

j$ · Post by j$ » Wed May 10, 2006 7:38 am

[EDIT]: oops this is for Mog!

Way to completely ignore what I said. You made a provocative statement, encouraging the continuance of a debate on a more theoretical level, and then dismissed it yourself as being unimportant. That's fatuous. And this was before Sober replied with the comment you quote supporting your point above. That's bad theory.

(Unless you're replying to Catch here, in which case I'll delete this post.)

catch · Post by **catch** » Wed May 10, 2006 7:40 am

I'll give you 4:1 he's responding to you.

Mogosagatai · Post by **Mogosagatai** » Wed May 10, 2006 7:40 am

j$ wrote:I read it right, then. You are the one who brought up the whole irony issue. Not been mentioned before.

It hadn't been mentioned before, but it was the only issue I could foresee that might be brought up (seemingly validly) to contradict the idea that Phil was doing a good thing by speaking to Sober that way. Think of that as my way of trying to answer arguments before they're made.

j$ wrote:Then you try to claim it doesn't mean anything with your last comment. That's exactly what makes the statement fatuous.

Actually, that's what makes the hypothetical argument that I pre-answered fatuous. I was trying to be nice enough to let anyone who might suggest such a fatuous thing that their suggestion would be a fatuous one.

It's kinda like, "and if you're about to say this then don't! because here's why that'd be a dumb thing to say...". Which you might think is a dumb thing to say, but Song Fight!'s a place where you've gotta cover all the bases sometimes.

EDIT: Haha Catch! And ohh, Johnny's just mad cuz he thinks the statement about Phil's infringement on Sober was too provocative. Well! Don't you see how it's better to say a false thing convincingly and then refute it still!? What point is there in refuting things of little weight? My hypothetical bullshit irony was only provocative because it was the only possible argument someone might have against Phil being GREAT for doing what he did. In order to show, really solidly, that Phil was being GREAT there, I went again and played Devil's Advocate for one brief second, I refuted my provocative claims. All in order to show that, yeah, there's no way Phil's not doing a wonderfully fatherly thing.

Sober · Post by **Sober** » Wed May 10, 2006 7:45 am

Man I'm gonna miss songfight.

bz£ · Post by **bz£** » Wed May 10, 2006 9:11 am

Hey, man, here is some more stuff to think about some.

I wouldn't encourage you to go out and enlist, but, you know, somebody's gotta do it. It's not like the US is so universally beloved that we could just not have an army and hope nobody messed with us. So, if you're sure about it, cool.

Just be very very sure. You. Cannot. Quit. For any reason. They're telling you that you'd just be rockin' out all the time. Maybe you will, and, hey, that's great. But maybe they decide that they have enough rockers and really need more people to fill out Dick Cheney's shiatsu massage squad. Tough shit for you.

That's not really likely to happen, and you don't really have to worry about getting shot, either (unless you get transferred to Dick Cheney's shiatsu massage squad). Maybe you get to rock all day and all of the night, but your boss is an asshole. That happens everywhere; you've probably already been there. Maybe you meet some hot chickie on the Internet and you'd like to move to her home town of Green Bay and get married. Maybe you just get bored and want to do something different. Sorry!

So, look. As long as you're sure about this, good for you. My advice: don't sign anything right away. Take a month or so and think about it. That's not really a lot of time, in the overall scheme of things. If you're still sure that this is the right move for you, then go for it.

Oh, and there are better ways to say "Fuck you, dad!" I think Hallmark makes a card for that.

Post by jb » Wed May 10, 2006 10:07 am

Isn't there some kind of Web page somewhere that illustrates the archtypical Internet argument? Something like:

"Blah blah blah"
"Oh that's such bullshit"
"It is not"
"It is, because you said ____ and that's obviously false"
"But I didn't say ____ stop putting words in my mouth asshole"
"You totally did. By saying ____ and then _____ you're basically saying ____"
"That a logical phallacy, and blahblahblahblah"

Some clever writer could easily make a foot-long satire out of this sort of thing. It happens ALL THE FUCKING TIME. You'd think that people would realize when they start to get sucked into a flame war of this type, but they don't. They just keep the argument going until an admin tells them to knock it off, or they just peter out because they're little squirrels and they saw something shinier.

Pfeh.

JB

catch · Post by **catch** » Wed May 10, 2006 10:10 am

jb wrote:They just keep the argument going until an admin tells them to knock it off, or they just peter out because they're little squirrels and they saw something shinier.

Haha, and now I'm not sure which outcome was reached here...

j$ · Post by j$ » Wed May 10, 2006 11:14 am

Heh, I stopped talking when I realised that the person I was talking to didn't want to listen. So I guess it's the latter.

Mogosagatai · Post by **Mogosagatai** » Wed May 10, 2006 11:22 am

Heck, I stopped cuz I thought it was resolved. Was that really a flamewar? If there's an issue at hand that isn't resolved than people oughta talk until it's resolved. If they're being mean and sassy then it's not gonna get resolved very easily, but at least one of us was being plenty civil.

Post by jb » Wed May 10, 2006 11:27 am

See, there you're still going at it. This would totally be in the middle section of the hypothetical satire, right after the argument dies down, but before it flares up again and goes for another week:

"I quit because I won."
"Oh really now? Well *I* quit because *you're* a *dick*, and I don't *talk* to dicks. So keep thinking you won, there, see if I care, dick."
"Blah blah call me a dick, I'm not the dick, you're the dick, you dick blah blah"
etc.

Sober · Post by **Sober** » Wed May 10, 2006 11:31 am

I know how to solve this:

IM JOINING TEH ARMY SO I CN KILL ME SUM FUCKIN TOWELHEADS GO USA #1

Discuss.

Mogosagatai · Post by **Mogosagatai** » Wed May 10, 2006 11:53 am

BE SURE AND KILL URSELF A FAG OR TWO WHILE UR AT IT AND OH YEAH WHITE POWER TOO #1!

JB, man, I wouldn't be talkin' to ya if you weren't settin' the bait. The convo was over, and then you came rip-roarin' in here throwin' paint on the walls. There's no need to raise a stink over stuff like that. But when people, like you and Johnny, fuss at me, I try to either apologize or tell them why they shouldn't be fussing. And you sir should not be fussing.

Sorry your thread got pissed on, Sober.

Hoblit · Post by **Hoblit** » Wed May 10, 2006 12:21 pm

Mogosagatai wrote:BE SURE AND KILL URSELF A FAG OR TWO WHILE UR AT IT

Sorry your thread got pissed on, Sober.

I ..I don't think he''ll be doing THAT.

and me too...hate it for your thread.

j$ · Post by j$ » Wed May 10, 2006 12:50 pm

Mogosagatai wrote:JB, man, I wouldn't be talkin' to ya if you weren't settin' the bait. The convo was over.

Yep, couldn't agree more.

The convo was over (which I lost because I couldn't get Mogosagatai to see the point I was trying to make at all). My bad, but I stopped just so people wouldn't need to use the

However I differ on one other thing - I couldn't give a damn that sober's thread was pissed over. It's a thread. And that believe it or not is the first angry thing I've typed all day.

Bjam · Post by **Bjam** » Wed May 10, 2006 1:14 pm

If you wanna go for it, go for it. Someone said earlier that it's sad that this is the best thing for a talented musician. Sober's obviously good at what he does musically, and the fact that signing up looks like the best option is kinda sad. But hey, power to you.

Post by jb » Wed May 10, 2006 3:07 pm

Still going!

"I was so totally not arguing."
"We were just having a friendly discussion, I wasn't hating on anybody."
"Yeah me either, what's your problem man?"
"Yeah, nobody picks on my buddy except me!"
"Yeah fuck you!"
"Right on! *hi five*"

WeaselSlayer · Post by **WeaselSlayer** » Wed May 10, 2006 3:11 pm

I think the person who comments on the dialogue is a part of it, too. Oh, and then of course the person who mentions that. So, I guess all our shit stinks.

Post by jb » Wed May 10, 2006 3:11 pm

Bjam wrote:If you wanna go for it, go for it. Someone said earlier that it's sad that this is the best thing for a talented musician. Sober's obviously good at what he does musically, and the fact that signing up looks like the best option is kinda sad. But hey, power to you.

Well, I dunno if this is the best thing for a talented musician. I mean, there's school. There's performing, not sure how hard Sober's tried to get an act together or anything. There's what Brad Sucks is doing. There's teaching. I dunno what avenues Sober's pursued, but it doesn't *seem* like he's exhausted his possibilities. But if he wants to go for this, my only worry for him would be that he wouldn't get into the band and would wind up with some other, hazardous duty.

I know a couple guys who auditioned for the Army Reserve band, and they were pretty smokin' drummers, and they were concerned about not getting in. I know a guy who went to Eastman for sax performance, who didn't get in to the Air Force band. I'm just sayin'. Maybe there's all levels of bands in the Army, and it won't be an issue. Maybe the Gnome, Alaska base has a band made up of crazy misfits who are always getting into hijinks.

Post by jb » Wed May 10, 2006 3:13 pm

WeaselSlayer wrote:I think the person who comments on the dialogue is a part of it, too. Oh, and then of course the person who mentions that. So, I guess all our shit stinks.

Oh yeah totally. It's like this self-referential moebius strip sort of conversation. In the satire you'd even have some guy going off and making a satire of the argument.

frankie big face · Post by **frankie big face** » Wed May 10, 2006 3:37 pm

Yeah, (some of) what JBB said. Sober, you better be able to read like a motherfucker because that's what you're going to be expected to do, regardless of the style. And if you're planning to play jazz, you better be able to improv like a motherfucker as well. These are not slouch bands and the expectations are really high. I've heard you play a couple of times, but have no idea what your formal background is, i.e. reading, etc.

If you were to get in a band, you probably won't ever get deployed. You'll just play at a bunch of high schools and veteran's clubs. Which isn't all that bad.

All that being said, I think joining the army to improve your musicianship is almost as stupid as getting incarcerated to improve your people skills. There are plenty of alternatives and you'd be better off moving to NYC and cutting your teeth in clubs. In a strange, twisted way, I think you are taking (what you think is) the safest route to becoming a full-time musician. You get paid, you get better as a musician, you can't give up because it's a federal crime--what's not to love? But you're like 22, right? Three years of your life is a long time and the world is a strange and violent place. Who knows what will happen?

Why not try the national guard first? They have plenty of musical groups, you still get to do basic training and lose that gut you're developing (I love how you think this is a Club Med) and you don't have to get shipped off to the middle of nowhere to learn how to build bridges or some shit (even the musicians have to learn some practical army skill-- unless I'm wrong, but my friend who was assistant conductor of the national guard band belonged to a bridge-building battalion).

You didn't ask, but I vote no.