Israel - why aren't we arguing about it?

[Lunkhead]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/ ... 81,00.html
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl? ... /14/146258

I may not "know enough" to have a well-formed or well-informed opinion about this whole business. I don't have to read a lot of news/history to know that indiscriminate killing is not good or legal, as far as I believe and understand, no matter who's doing it (my opinion, there, of course). I also know that Israel has billions of our tax dollars and billions of our tax dollars' worth of attack helicopters, fighter jets, armored tanks, munitions, etc. etc. ( http://www.washington-report.org/html/u ... israel.htm ) We Americans have aided and abetted what they're doing, whether we like it or are aware of it or not. I personally would like my government to tell them that they must cease fire immediately and to conduct some kind of negotiation for some kind of treaty.

[a bebop a rebop]

I can agree with that. I don't like our involvement in it at all.

[Denyer]

I would be happy for my tax moneys to help the poor defenseless Israelis fight off the evil jerk bad guys. But I guess you handsome fellow Americans don't care about anyone else (I know I won't care if you don't like it when your country helps mine beat up some baddies).

[Caravan Ray]

There's no denying that some of my ancestors did some pretty unpleasant stuff. I mean, fuck, we had an empire, and you don't get those by being all hugs and smiles. But if we'd actually been enslaving the Irish or engaged in a program of genocide against them, I like to think that it would have come up at some point in history lessons or just general conversation. So, y'know, if there's a gaping hole in my knowledge of english history, I'd like to know about it, but I'd like a source more credible than those mentioned above.

I agree they were hardly credible sources - I wasn't presenting them as my opinion or as a factual argument - just somebody's opinion (I should have made that clearer). But are you saying you haven't heard the "Irish genocide" arguement before? It's an extreme view, sure - but it is a view that pops up from time to time. All history is just the past through somebody's point of view - and that is the point of view of some. There are plenty who will say that White Australians are guilty of genocide of the Aboriginal people. History can get muddy when words like 'genocide' are thrown about.

It is interesting to compare the Irish and Jewish diasporas though - and see how much of the subsequent bloodshed in both the Middle East and Northern Ireland was fanned by external interests (note - both of those more extreme links were by American Irish). I'm sure there are plenty of poor bastards there on the ground who would just like to put the past behind them and get on with living in peace. N. Ireland seems to be peaceful now - and that only took, what...400 years? Maybe there's hope for the Middle East yet.

[obscurity]

But are you saying you haven't heard the "Irish genocide" arguement before?

Yeah, I have genuinely never heard that argument before. I'm not certain I fully understand what the argument is even now, 'cos dude you linked to wasn't the most eloquent bloke on the 'net. Closest to that argument I've come to before is a vague awareness that some americans seem to think the english are oppressing the irish right now, as we speak.

[roymond]

N. Ireland seems to be peaceful now - and that only took, what...400 years? Maybe there's hope for the Middle East yet.

Well, it's only been a couple thousand years so far...

[Caravan Ray]

But are you saying you haven't heard the "Irish genocide" arguement before?

Yeah, I have genuinely never heard that argument before. I'm not certain I fully understand what the argument is even now, 'cos dude you linked to wasn't the most eloquent bloke on the 'net. Closest to that argument I've come to before is a vague awareness that some americans seem to think the english are oppressing the irish right now, as we speak.

I suppose it's a result of my Australian/Irish/Catholic background - but all the history I leant at school always had the implied, if not necessarily stated slant that Australia was settled primarily to ease England's "Irish problem". The word 'genocide' was probably never used - but there was an underlying implication that England want the Irish to just 'go away'. It's no accident that Australia's most famous "folk hero" is Ned Kelly - an Irish cop-killer.

It's a good example of how when a people are displaced from their original homelands - their decendants have the tendency to twist and poison their history somewhat. Good fuel for future wars.

[stueym]

but all the history I leant at school always had the implied, if not necessarily stated slant that Australia was settled primarily to ease England's "Irish problem".

Well this was more of a landowner/wealthy solution to all kinds of unfortunate 'social' problems. The English Government appointed "Scottish" Lairds during the same period north of the border who encouraged (forcibly or otherwise) large numbers of hill farmers and others to 'volunteer' to populate the Atlantic provinces of Canada. Similar plan without the nasty expenses of having a legal due process and chains. Get the buggers to pay their own ticket to emigrate!

I do agree with Roymond however that the little English-Irish spat of the last 500 years is put to shame with the 2,000+ years of feudal shenanigans in the Middle East. And of course the British Empire in decline did do a lot to put in place the artificial land grab boundaries that form many of the current states in the Middle East. Our part in the mismanagement of the creation and settlement of what became the state of Israel was pretty damning too. Spasmodic efforts to control it then a swift exit stage left post WW2

The effect of external organizations/parties with a vested interest is of course riddled throughout modern history. Whether Jews worldwide using their personal and political clout to find wasy to bolster and reinforce the state of Israel... Or the misguided Armalite fund raisers in the bars of Boston and New York in the 80's...Through to the Ted Kennedy state funded sponsored anachronisms that continue today where British people from Northern Ireland can apply for the Green Card Lottery, but the remainder of the residents of the United Kingdom cannot.

Also its interesting to see how the moralizing starts from the high ground but is not accepted when the other guys (Iran & Syria supporting-Palestine/Hezballah) get upto the same hijinks.

Anyway my point is it's a mess... always has been... always will be. But occasionally you get a break through cos the parties get tired.

Condie should use it as the basis of her Presidential campaign and if she succeeds she gets a free pass through the New Hampshire primaries. Sounds like a more realistic incentive to getting her to get it done than pleadin (speaking as a sales manager of course LOL)

[Paco Del Stinko]

Condie should use it as the basis of her Presidential campaign and if she succeeds she gets a free pass through the New Hampshire primaries.

Not with my New Hampshire vote! Of course, if Jim Tyrrell votes for her, well, don't do it Jim! Also, the New Hampshire primary is in jeopardy of being moved and may lose some of its purported relevance.

I was not aware of the business with the Scottish lairds but I may have a distant connection to it as my ancestry is both Scottish and Nova Scotian.

It may not be right, but as the USA shows, the conquerers keep the land. Who says Israel should've been given a free pass? The Torah? So what. I wish they'd all knock it off but even with just my little toe dipping into the pool of reality, I am unable to hope for such a thing. I might dare to peek at the religeous "end of days" crazies, as they are probably frothing over this exciting, to them, series of horrors. On the homefront, they scare me very much. Just say no to theocracy, while we still can.

(Just saw that I had mis-spelled Jim's name - sorry, Jim. All fixed!)

[furrypedro]

they'll be called an anti-Semitic racist Nazi

I'm sure we'd all be more comfortable with the term anti-Zionist.
I don't really know what it means to be Jewish, but I also don't know many people who haven't got a Jewish friend or two, even if they(I) don't(didn't) realise it.

and yes, the holy land, the claims, the rights, the rocks, the sand. what fun
I've never heard of anybody fighting over somewhere like...I dunno, Cornwall. Okay, so it's at the arse-end of nowhere but at least you can farm stuff there and use bouncey balls AND surf. I think everyone's are missing a trick there...

[mc3p0]

Okay, so it's at the arse-end of nowhere but at least you can farm stuff there and use bouncey balls AND surf.

There are miles of burial mounds dating thousands of years inside of Iraq, and possibly entire cities to be excavated. The Middle East is littered with human remains which have been robbed-away by mainly Bittish and American interests for years.

Zionist Jews are a particular curiosity. In the 30's and 40's Muslim and Jew were quite amicable. Israel has been using the "religious fervor" for land-grabbing every few years, powered by American munitions.

Unfortunately, Israel also uses biochemical weapons on civilians, denies the anti-toxin to hospitals and basically uses it's military to propagandize and overpower the weaker neighboring Arab nations. Weapons contracting is the main reason for America's involvement.

Imo, America needs to stop all funding and support of Israel, enforce the United Nations regulations and dedicate our responsibility to serve global interests.

Here's the torrent program that I currently use: Utorrent

Here's a useful factual compilation, including propaganda: Zionist War Crimes - The Case For The Prosecution

Here's one I'm downloading currently: The Final Solution to Adolf Hitler (Zionist co-op with Nazis)

Post if you need help.

[mc3p0]

Here's another freakish thing: Depeche Mode 'Enjoy The Silence' WTC video.. no, really.