Are you SongFighting to win?

[jack]

Plus if you win too many fights you run the risk of going loco.

he just wasn't getting enough validation.

or maybe it was the iron clef that finally did him in

[j$]

Validation is meaningless.

I don't really care to prove anything beyond a shadow of a doubt to someone who disagrees with the notion that validation is not the only reason for every human action.

Without wishing to start some uneasy flame war, Leaf saying validation is not meaningless is not the same thing at all as saying it being the only reason for every human action. The brain can multi-task. You appear to me to be trying to shout him down by putting words in his mouth.

since he wasn't being validated a whole hell of a lot during his life, then there must have been some other factor driving him.

Yeah, like seeking it, for instance? If not from the world at large, from the woman he loved, or from his patron, or a small group?

I agree totally that validation is meaningless in objective terms, but that doesn't mean that the subjective mind doesn't crave it anyway.

[Leaf]

He made his art because he wanted to and because he thought it was good. Validation is meaningless.

How do you know this? (the first part about Van Gough, the second part is merely your opinion and one I personally don't agree with).


I am curious if the first part is your opinion, or a "fact" you have derived from some validated source.

You're right, by golly, I have no idea if he made his art because he wanted to. He could have made his art without having any real desire to do so. I have no idea whether he thought his art was good. He could have kept making all those paintings without thinking they were good.

My point was, he wasn't getting alot of validation in life. If you need a source, here is a Wiki pedia link:

http://en.[CENSORED].org/wiki/Vincent_van_Gogh#Posthumous_Fame

If you need a better source than Wiki pedia, I will admit that I don't really care to prove anything beyond a shadow of a doubt to someone who disagrees with the notion that validation is not the only reason for every human action.

I am totally going out on a limb here when I say that since he wasn't being validated a whole hell of a lot during his life, then there must have been some other factor driving him.

I just found the whole thing interesting, because I am the kind of person who gets stuck on a theme (philosphically... spelt better... hmmm) for a while, and before I read any of this, my latest theme HAS been the issue of validation. I agree with (I think) one of your points, in that validation is meaningless... but my twist on that (for me) is that it ends up being meaningless beyond myself. I think the desire for validation is HUGE in humans... it becomes distressing when one realizes that this is a personal desire, and rarely if ever is it some type of thing that is universally understood.

I'd guess that the LACK of validation could have been a driving force for an artist like VanGough, in that he continued to seek it out simply cause he kept getting rejected. Now, I don't know this as fact no more than you did, but I was sincere... if you knew this as some reported fact on his life or if you were merely speculating to make your point, which is obivously fine.


The shitty thing about seeking validation is that it doesn't appear to be real. I mean, if I play a gig, and someone says "that was awesome", I used to not hear it... in stead I'd seek out the criticism! When I identified that... I realized that I was attracting rejection rather than the validation I thought I needed...

And I don't need a "source" man, or the "by golly". You're the one who threw the point out there, I asked for clarity because I WAS INTERESTED in your point. For someone who likes to have "discussions" you SEEM to take it a little too personal too quick. Of course, I KNOW I do that!! So it's all good.


Validation. What a shity thing to pursue anway. Too bad it's firmly ingrained in my head. That's why I disagreed with your second point... I see, from my perspective, how vaidation is meaningless, and yet, I still strive for it... I still lack understanding, completely, as to why I do that... and so it still has meaning to me, although less than say 10 years ago.

[jb]

MROWR!

[roymond]

I think the desire for validation is HUGE in humans...

I see, from my perspective, how vaidation is meaningless, and yet, I still strive for it... I still lack understanding, completely, as to why I do that... and so it still has meaning to me

Bingo! What other life form can take such liberties with a concept such as "validation". In the animal kingdom, it's called "survival". We, on the other hand, can either give a shit or not and live to give a shit or not tomorrow. And right there lies the heart of your point, perhaps. We don't require validation for much of anything, but it does give great value to life and I think fundamentally there are threads of our animal instincts that desire validation (whether we admit it or not). For some people, negative feedback is all the validation they need for their actions.

I am no expert in this, of course.

[Æpplês&vØdkã]

Well, this is my first fight, didn't even find out about the website up until about 12 hours before the deadline, so I really didn't put much effort into my song at all. So for now, I'm not really trying to win. Even though it would be nice to win.

[erik]

Validation is meaningless.

I don't really care to prove anything beyond a shadow of a doubt to someone who disagrees with the notion that validation is not the only reason for every human action.

Without wishing to start some uneasy flame war, Leaf saying validation is not meaningless is not the same thing at all as saying it being the only reason for every human action. The brain can multi-task. You appear to me to be trying to shout him down by putting words in his mouth.

since he wasn't being validated a whole hell of a lot during his life, then there must have been some other factor driving him.

Yeah, like seeking it, for instance? If not from the world at large, from the woman he loved, or from his patron, or a small group?

I agree totally that validation is meaningless in objective terms, but that doesn't mean that the subjective mind doesn't crave it anyway.

Sure, but we don't always get validation. So it's not necessary. You can get by without being validated, which is the point I was making when I responded to Rone Rivendale when he said:

Whatever we do in life, we do it for the validation. Otherwise, it's meaningless.

You're right that I was trying to shout someone down, but it wasn't Leaf, it was Rone, and it wasn't by putting words in his mouth, it was by refuting what he had said.

There are things in life that we don't do for validation.

[erik]

I'd guess that the LACK of validation could have been a driving force for an artist like VanGough, in that he continued to seek it out simply cause he kept getting rejected. Now, I don't know this as fact no more than you did, but I was sincere... if you knew this as some reported fact on his life or if you were merely speculating to make your point, which is obivously fine...

And I don't need a "source" man, or the "by golly". You're the one who threw the point out there, I asked for clarity because I WAS INTERESTED in your point. For someone who likes to have "discussions" you SEEM to take it a little too personal too quick. Of course, I KNOW I do that!! So it's all good.

Well, you actually asked for a source, so I gave you one. If you were asking for clarity, that's cool, and I can appreciate that.

Since you're right, that we can never really know the motivating forces behind a long-dead person, I'll instead put myself up on display. I make music because I know I have talent. I'm not some all-talented music-god or anything, but there are things that I know I do well. I don't need to be validated, because I already know that I'm good (at certain things). It's nice to hear, but I already know that (some) people like my music. I will continue to make music regardless of whether I get validation (or since I validate myself, regardless of whether I get praise).

I don't know, it seems to me like how some people need to end every single phone call to their girlfriend with "I love you." Is it more important to hear those words all the time because that's the only way you *know* it, or is it more important to believe the words more when you hear them less?

How important is the opinions of others, especially with regards to one's own art? If you believe in yourself, do you really need to hear praise all that much? Not crave it, want it, desire it, or anything half-ass like that. NEED it. Some people probably do. Most people (I think) fall somewhere else on a spectrum where outside-validation is not a *necessary* component to making art. At least one person exists like this.

[Dan-O from Five-O]

I don't know, it seems to me like how some people need to end every single phone call to their girlfriend with "I love you." Is it more important to hear those words all the time because that's the only way you *know* it, or is it more important to believe the words more when you hear them less?

Speaking from personal experience, it's most important that you never try and figure it out or else your head will explode like that scene from the beginning of "Scanners". Women just want to hear us say it, and they really want to hear it if there's another guy there to hear us say it. Because they like the way it makes us squirm is as near an answer as to why as I've ever gotten.

And my head hurt real bad after coming to that lame conclusion.

[JonPorobil]

At first I didn't enter Songfight to win. Around the time I did "Violet Wants it Her Way," I decided that if I wasn't fighting to win, I was going to spend the rest of my life making nothing but crap. So I started not submitted songs that were still half-finished when the deadline rolled around. I haven't had as many songs, but they've been, on average, better. At least I'd like to think so.

[Kill Me Sarah]

It would be nice to win, but I think it would be far too discouraging for a person with my particular skillset to only be submitting in the hopes of winning. I'm mostly here for the motivation to write and the excellent feedback.