What's a Cover?

Talk about how awesome the new _______ album is.
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mkilly
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Post by mkilly »

Tonamel wrote: Covers stem from the artist driven culture that we have today, in which songs are written to be performed by one particular band or person (as Leaf mentioned). So when somebody performs a song that was designed for someone else, that's a cover.

For whatever reason, standards are songs that have lost, or never had, an affiliation with one performer. 'Cover' implies the song has a specific artist, which these don't, so they're considered interpretations instead.
these definitions... i disagree. the gershwins and cole porter composed most of their songs knowing exactly who would be performing them (fred astaire, ethel merman, judy garland, whoever), but (imo, based on what i know of history) the circumstances of the 20th-century jazz scene, the fact that the notion of "singer-songwriter" had yet to emerge, the prevalence of stage and film musicals, singers like frank sinatra, these led to many songs pre-1950--pre-rock and roll--being called standards, the great american songbook, all this. i dunno where you've decided that the songs don't have a specific "artist" when the composer for "night and day," the composer for "in the still of the night," the composer for "god bless america" is known. with a song like "scarborough fair" or "greensleeves" we don't have a known author, but we usually use the term "cover" so loosely as to say that simon and garfunkel covered the former. or that they arranged it.

myself, as a DJ, i use the term "arrange" when there's a likelihood that somebody did specific things to an extant song (added horns, removed strings, sped it up, added harmonies, whatever) and that same person or someone else performed it. basically i think of it in terms of that one can publish sheet music of arrangements, whereas with what i term "covers," the sheet music would be hella boring. not to say that the music is boring, just that a cover's less refined or deep than an arrangement. but then i don't stick hard and fast to these rules. i'd call lunkhead's cover of my song "stairway to the moon" an arrangement of my lyrics and melody, i'd call jb's cover of my song "look good in black" a cover. then this is bordering on the offensive and definitely arbitrary. when i think "arrangement" i think sheet music. when i think "cover" i think rock band having a good time. usually.
Arrangements are also versions of 'performerless' songs, but the connotation here is weighted very heavily toward instrumentals. So much so, in fact, that my mind considers the album Acoustica: Alarm Will Sound Performs Aphex Twin to be a set of arrangements, even though it's a specific group performing their versions of songs from a specific artist.
by the dictionary, a song has words and music, and i just use the word "piece" to describe anything else that's musical (unless it's an etude, or symphony, or concerto, etc.). or "track," if it's a rock band. i don't equate arrangement with instrumental at all, or even connote it with instrumentals. an arrangement is when someone who isn't the composer takes some part or parts of the original composition (melody, words) and adds to or changes them. if you take debussy's clair de lune and write it out for performance with sousaphone on lead melody and harmonization by a small children's chorus, you have arranged the clair de lune; if you take joni mitchell's california and write a new guitar part, with trills and rhythmic changes and a three-minute-long outro, you have arranged california. on the other hand, if you take thelonious monk's 1941 performance of "sweet georgia brown" and copy his timing and performance and write it to sheet music, you have transcribed monk's arrangement.

Bad metaphor time: production-wise, writing a song from scratch is like sculpting a statue out of clay that you mold into shape, while building a song from samples/loops is like building a statue out of Legos. Even if it ends up looking like this, it's still just made out of preshaped blocks.
that's a bad metaphor, but not because of the imagery. what does it matter if i performed the bassline or someone else did? not to get on a slippery slope, but what if they performed it for some other song? when i take that bit and make it my own, somehow, that's where the trick is. frontalot and baddd spellah took "can you picture that?" from the muppet movie and made it a bouncing rap track, without using the melody. if you've never heard the avalanches or dj shadow or the go! team, they use sampling extensively in their music--in the case of the avalanches and dj shadow, nearly exclusively for their respective, acclaimed albums Since I Left You and Endtroducing...--but it's hardly, hardly, hardly as if they just went to the store, bought a tin of lego blocks, and assembled them. now, what you're saying is that even though you can't assemble lego blocks like that dude on flickr can, the blocks by which he made them are available to anyone and he can only take so much compositional credit. that to me is very disingenuous. lego started out with 4 colors and, what, a half-dozen shapes of blocks? there are computer programs that let you model out with ease these 24 combinations, even to the point of creating sculpture like that one you linked to on flickr; dj shadow has an extensive collection of music, of all genres and kinds, from the pedestrian to the very obscure (single, home pressings of community college marching bands, 7-11 promotional 7"s), and even after you've bought all those records, you have to listen to them, find out what's good, find out what's bad, find out what's good in the bad, choose samples ranging from the entire vocal line to a two-second drum beat, or a one-second yell, and then record your own new composition using them. this is nontrivial. half of songfight can't even record their own new, crappy songs decently, but you act as if sampling is less than that. </tangent>

well, there's my two cents, i guess.
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Post by jb »

Well to be fair, mkilly, it is FAR easier to make a good-sounding song out of samples than it is to record all new sounds yourself. But the sampling and looping has other challenges that go a ways toward leveling the scale of difficulty. So difficult to make something that really stands out using that method of composition.
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Post by Tonamel »

jb wrote:Oh I disagree COMPLETELY. It's all in what the song says and how it makes the listener feel. Loops and samples do not make a song "weak" in any way. Lack of inspiration does that.
mkilly wrote:but it's hardly, hardly, hardly as if they just went to the store, bought a tin of lego blocks, and assembled them.
Okay, whoa, back things up here a little bit. I never said that using samples was bad or weak or whatever. The Lego comparsion was only to say that you're using something prefabricated, not that it is in anyway childish or artless.
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Post by mkilly »

jb wrote:Well to be fair, mkilly, it is FAR easier to make a good-sounding song out of samples than it is to record all new sounds yourself. But the sampling and looping has other challenges that go a ways toward leveling the scale of difficulty. So difficult to make something that really stands out using that method of composition.
I suppose it may be far easier. Maybe even FAR easier. I wouldn't know, I haven't made a good song originally nor out of samples. (rimshot)
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Post by Jim of Seattle »

mkilly wrote:I suppose it may be far easier. Maybe even FAR easier. I wouldn't know, I haven't made a good song originally nor out of samples. (rimshot)
Your "Moscow, Idaho" is a good song.
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Post by Caravan Ray »

Jim of Seattle wrote:
mkilly wrote:I suppose it may be far easier. Maybe even FAR easier. I wouldn't know, I haven't made a good song originally nor out of samples. (rimshot)
Your "Moscow, Idaho" is a good song.
But my cover of it is better! :wink:
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Post by Jim of Seattle »

Caravan Ray wrote:
Jim of Seattle wrote:
mkilly wrote:I suppose it may be far easier. Maybe even FAR easier. I wouldn't know, I haven't made a good song originally nor out of samples. (rimshot)
Your "Moscow, Idaho" is a good song.
But my cover of it is better! :wink:
Hmm... Wasn't that more of an "arrangement"?
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Post by GlennCase »

annnnnnnnnnnnd CUT!

print.

Roll the credits.

ROCK!

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Post by jack »

i just gotta say frankie's comment about leaf actually made me laugh out loud. :)

and you guys should listen to JB. he is wise.
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Post by Spud »

How is it that sculpting out of Lego is any less original than sculpting out of clay? You didn't make the clay, either. It is just because Lego is more granular? In my view, you often have to be even more creative to work within, internalize, or possibly get around the inherent limitations of a prescribed system. Clay is easy. You can make anything.
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Post by Smalltown Mike »

Spud wrote:Clay is easy. You can make anything.
I'm not taking sides, just pointing out that you can make anything out of Lego. Anything. My kids have yet to stump me with a request.
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Post by Caravan Ray »

...and Lego can be melted down, or granulated and mixed into an epoxy slurry to make almost anything - the possibilities are endless.
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Post by fodroy »

Caravan Ray is thinking outside of the blocks.

:roll:
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Post by Jim of Seattle »

Wouldn't it be cool if someone made a musical instrument out of Legos and then recorded a song using that instrument, and then someone else took samples out of that recording and mixed them around to make a different song?
Here's my record label page thingie with stuff about me if you are so interested: https://greenmonkeyrecords.com/jim-of-seattle/
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Post by Caravan Ray »

Some of the percussion on my "Chance" was done by banging pieces of my daughter's oversize toddler Lego together.
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Post by Tonamel »

Well, Jim, you're halfway there already.
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* this is not a disclaimer
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Post by Egg »

Jim of Seattle wrote:Wouldn't it be cool if someone made a musical instrument out of Legos and then recorded a song using that instrument, and then someone else took samples out of that recording and mixed them around to make a different song?
Bumping this thread because... does anybody seriously want to make an EP with other songfighters where we do this?

I'm in. I'm in twice.
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Post by Jim of Seattle »

Jettisoning the Lego part of it, I could see a really cool project where one guy writes a song, then the next guy writes a song made of samples of the first sone, and then the third guy uses the second song, etc., etc. Instead of an EP, it could be part of the regular fights. One week someone uses samples from a song of the previous week, and so on...
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Post by Niveous »

Music made with toys can be awesome.

The band Self did their whole Gizmodgery album using such items as Little Tikes Xylophone, Mattel See & Say, Schoenhut Toy Piano, and Groovy Tunes Guitar. And they even did a Doobie Brothers cover on the album.

Pianosaurus' album is less electronic but still their album "Groovy Neighborhood" is all played on toy instruments.

Then there's also this: http://babel.massart.edu/~flackett/ToyNoise.html

And I can't forget to include Twink (horrible name!), the toy piano band.
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Post by spinlock »

Jim of Seattle wrote:Jettisoning the Lego part of it, I could see a really cool project where one guy writes a song, then the next guy writes a song made of samples of the first sone, and then the third guy uses the second song, etc., etc. Instead of an EP, it could be part of the regular fights. One week someone uses samples from a song of the previous week, and so on...
How about a song of songfight, where a song has to be made using at least one sample from every song in a week's fight. That's a challenge. But I'd be in for the original idea as well.
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Post by Jim of Seattle »

Yeah, you'd have to submit a song which includes a sample from every song from the previous week's fight. I don't normally use samples in my songs, so I'm probably not qualified, but I could quote the songs in non-sample ways. Sounds hard.
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