The award for best death of 2007

WeaselSlayer · Post by **WeaselSlayer** » Wed May 16, 2007 5:09 pm

I know I'm at least 10 times as pleasant when I'm drunk.

Märk · Post by **Märk** » Wed May 16, 2007 5:12 pm

obscurity wrote:
Rone Rivendale wrote:I am embarrassed by the majority of Church Goers who practice their faith once or twice a week by going to Church and singing their songs and reciting their passages and then the other 5-6 days a week they drink and do drugs and cheat on their wives and abuse their children. It makes me sick. I believe in practicing your faith in private and being a good person EVERY day not just on Sunday.
You seem to be saying that drinking and doing drugs equates to not being a good person. Is that what you intended to say? If so, why do you think that?

I think he was actually saying *xtians* who drink and do drugs. They *are* bad people, because they aren't supposed to do that, according to their own blibbleblabble.

Thanksfully, you and I, my friend, don't have to abide by such nonsense. Drink and smoke up all you want, dude; there's no sky pixie up there gonna hold you accountable for it. But you already knew that

Hoblit · Post by **Hoblit** » Wed May 16, 2007 6:27 pm

Funny. This thread wasn't nearly as disputable until somebody brought up the fact that it hadn't already been in the throws of flame.

rone rivendale · Post by **rone rivendale** » Wed May 16, 2007 7:21 pm

I don't have a problem with people who drink. There is plenty of wine drinking in the bible I believe. I meant more around the lines of flat out drunks, not the occasional drinker.

obscurity · Post by **obscurity** » Wed May 16, 2007 8:18 pm

So being a flat-out drunk makes you a bad person?

WeaselSlayer · Post by **WeaselSlayer** » Wed May 16, 2007 8:50 pm

Uh oh.

Hoblit · Post by **Hoblit** » Thu May 17, 2007 6:23 am

obscurity wrote:So being a flat-out drunk makes you a bad person?

Typically, yes. It doesn't mean you aren't a good person that the drunk is overpowering. You can recover from that. I'm sure you've heard of the coke monster. Certain drugs and alcohol can over take a person's initial personality and alter it into something almost unrecognizable.

This is assuming that when I hear 'flat out drunk' it's describing a person who is devoid of meeting their personal and financial obligations in society because of their drinking habits.

I think one can drink alot, and not necessarily be 'a drunk'.

/threadjack

obscurity · Post by **obscurity** » Thu May 17, 2007 6:44 am

Hoblit wrote:
obscurity wrote:So being a flat-out drunk makes you a bad person?
Typically, yes.
[snip]
This is assuming that when I hear 'flat out drunk' it's describing a person who is devoid of meeting their personal and financial obligations in society because of their drinking habits.

Well, in that case, isn't it the failure to meet your obligations that makes you a bad person? Wouldn't you be a bad person if you did that regardless of drink? Would you still be a bad person if you were a flat-out drunk yet still managed to meet your obligations?

anti-m · Post by **anti-m** » Thu May 17, 2007 6:53 am

*Groan* The point is that many members of the "moral" "majority" were the equivalent of closet drunks who shrilly advocated the public flogging and humiliation of the rest of the drunks of the world.

Extra Credit Question: Does doing the above make you a bad person, or just an annoying hypocrite?

Please let's not argue about whether alcoholism is a disease or a moral failing. I just read Augusten Burroughs "Dry" and I can't imagine that anything about to be said here is likely to be as entertaining a read.

bz£ · Post by **bz£** » Thu May 17, 2007 6:57 am

anti-m wrote: I can't imagine that anything about to be said here is likely to be as entertaining a read.

Welcome to the internet! Nothing we have to say is entertaining but that is damn well not going to stop us. Because we are all lousy drunks.

Hoblit · Post by **Hoblit** » Thu May 17, 2007 7:38 am

obscurity wrote:
Hoblit wrote:
obscurity wrote:So being a flat-out drunk makes you a bad person?
Typically, yes.
[snip]
This is assuming that when I hear 'flat out drunk' it's describing a person who is devoid of meeting their personal and financial obligations in society because of their drinking habits.
Well, in that case, isn't it the failure to meet your obligations that makes you a bad person? Wouldn't you be a bad person if you did that regardless of drink? Would you still be a bad person if you were a flat-out drunk yet still managed to meet your obligations?

Obviously it's the failure to meet your obligations...but as a direct result of drinking. You sir are splitting hairs.

Also, closet drinking and telling the world that drinking is bad is hypicritical and that is an unsavory trait in the christian right.

anti-m · Post by **anti-m** » Thu May 17, 2007 7:50 am

bzl wrote:
anti-m wrote: I can't imagine that anything about to be said here is likely to be as entertaining a read.
Welcome to the internet! Nothing we have to say is entertaining but that is damn well not going to stop us. Because we are all lousy drunks.

Yes, well, I realized I was pissing in the wind, but I thought I'd ask anyway because I'm selfish. (Does that make ME a bad person?)

Edit: Seriously, though -- I was enjoying this topic before the current derailment -- Among other things, it was interesting to hear some Christians' assessment of the far right -- reassuring even!

Hoblit · Post by **Hoblit** » Thu May 17, 2007 8:29 am

anti-m wrote:
bzl wrote:
anti-m wrote: I can't imagine that anything about to be said here is likely to be as entertaining a read.
Welcome to the internet! Nothing we have to say is entertaining but that is damn well not going to stop us. Because we are all lousy drunks.
Yes, well, I realized I was pissing in the wind, but I thought I'd ask anyway because I'm selfish. (Does that make ME a bad person?)

Edit: Seriously, though -- I was enjoying this topic before the current derailment -- Among other things, it was interesting to hear some Christians' assessment of the far right -- reassuring even!

The worse part is that a lot of christian republicans (especially ones who are frequently recognized by popular media) speak about democrats as if none of them are Christians. As if all liberals are non-christians. I've even heard the term 'Godless Democrats' in the context of Us & Them. (You're either with us or against us)

That is appalling to me. As if just because I'm liberal I can't possibly be have anything in common with them...especially christianity. To them all liberals, excluding Jews (who are still Jesusless to them), are athiest, Darwin believin', evolutionizing big bang theorists.

There's some perspective for you.

obscurity · Post by **obscurity** » Thu May 17, 2007 10:34 am

Hoblit wrote: Obviously it's the failure to meet your obligations...but as a direct result of drinking. You sir are splitting hairs.

Well, really, I'm not. I mean, people seemed to be saying that drinking and/or taking drugs inherently makes one a bad person, and as someone who spends very little of his spare time sober, I wanted to understand why they thought that. I mean, if someone told you they thought you were a bad person, wouldn't you want to understand why they think that, and if that really is what they meant?

Hoblit wrote: Also, closet drinking and telling the world that drinking is bad is hypicritical and that is an unsavory trait in the christian right.

Yeah, I can totally understand that, hypocritical condemnations piss me off no end.

roymond · Post by **roymond** » Thu May 17, 2007 10:35 am

Guess I picked the wrong week to give up drinking...

jimtyrrell · Post by **jimtyrrell** » Thu May 17, 2007 11:18 am

You can tell I'm bored today...

(90% of my comments redacted. Only the weak joke at the end remains)

In closing, the good Reverend Falwell has provided us with a nice big convenient common enemy here. And we squander that gift by arguing amongst ourselves.

WeaselSlayer · Post by **WeaselSlayer** » Thu May 17, 2007 11:26 am

I know, right?

Mostess · Post by **Mostess** » Thu May 17, 2007 11:26 am

Flames are not nearly high enough for a threat that is (ostensibly) about hell. So...

obscurity wrote:people seemed to be saying that drinking and/or taking drugs inherently makes one a bad person, and as someone who spends very little of his spare time sober, I wanted to understand why they thought that.

Rone's original point was that Sunday morning Christians who get drunk *and* do drugs *and* cheat on their wives *and* beat their children are bad people. That seems fairly uncontroversial. I'm sure some habitually drunken, high, adulterous, child-abusing church attenders are perfectly good people. But I'd guess it's a small percentage.

Now, if I spent most of my free time non-sober, I might have read something more judgmental into Rone's post as well. And gotten weirdly defensive about it. Which would have been kind of embarassing (not that I'd have noticed).

I eat a lot of salt, which does not make me a bad person. Nor does it alter my sleep cycle, decision-making, and social judgment. Nor does it disrupt my reflexes, working memory skills, and verbal fluency. And thank goodness. Because if it did, I'd be pretty irresponsible to choose to eat so much of it.

HeuristicsInc · Post by **HeuristicsInc** » Thu May 17, 2007 11:33 am

anti-m wrote:Among other things, it was interesting to hear some Christians' assessment of the far right -- reassuring even!

Yes, people like him certainly did a lot to make all Christians look bad along with themselves. Grr! Even we can't stand this guy. Claiming to be Christian while also spouting that sort of hatred... bah. That's not Christian.
-bill

obscurity · Post by **obscurity** » Thu May 17, 2007 11:52 am

Mostess wrote:Rone's original point was that Sunday morning Christians who get drunk *and* do drugs *and* cheat on their wives *and* beat their children are bad people.

But what struck me was that unless you think that getting drunk and doing drugs are things that prevent one from being a good person, why include it in that list? It seemed to be saying that drinking and doing drugs were morally equivalent to adultery and child abuse. Are you really that surprised to find that someone who both drinks and takes drugs would find that offensive?

Mostess wrote: Now, if I spent most of my free time non-sober, I might have read something more judgmental into Rone's post as well. And gotten weirdly defensive about it. Which would have been kind of embarassing (not that I'd have noticed).

I'm sorry if you think I'm being weird. It's fair to say that a lot of people have thought that about me over the years, starting long before I ever discovered drink or drugs. I'm pretty resigned to it, to be honest. I think, though, that I'd be more embarrassed about being tactless enough to publicly tell someone - who you have observed is behaving defensively - that you think they're being weird, rather than, say, sending a PM about it, or even better, just muttering 'weirdo' to yourself and moving on. But hey, that's just me, what do I know?

Caravan Ray · Post by **Caravan Ray** » Thu May 17, 2007 1:14 pm

Hoblit wrote:
obscurity wrote:So being a flat-out drunk makes you a bad person?
I think one can drink alot, and not necessarily be 'a drunk'.

I'm a drunk - but I'm not an alcoholic. Their meetings are no fun at all.

rone rivendale · Post by **rone rivendale** » Thu May 17, 2007 1:20 pm

Thank you Mostess for seeing my real point, instead of picking apart a few words out of a paragraph and ranting about it like some did

Really all I meant by any of it was that some people talk the talk to anyone who will listen and use the fact that they go to church as their primary reason of being of high morals. But when it comes down to it, alot of them don't walk the walk and they do alot of bad things and yet they believe they are above everyone else.

If there is one thing I can't stand more than anything it's people who put themselves above others. Personally I belive we are all equals whether you have faith or not. Mortals aren't meant to judge, although most do anyway. (and I won't say I'm innocent there).