The Song Fight Bulletin Board

*applauds Spud's wise words*

It's spelled "germane", but that's not really relevant.

Oh ho ho...

Spud wrote: Lots of good stuff

Hear Hear! Marcus is a positive force and well worthy of the respect that many here hold him in not only for his efforts in contributing songs over the past three years, but the side stuff he does in keeping old farts like me informed of other interesting indie music that I would otherwise miss out on. (References and his radio shows)

Plus any man that sups regularly of the Arrogant Bastard is a friend of mine!

Cheer up Marcus....Who loves ya baby?!

mkilly wrote: When I said "how does it sound for my twenty-first entry" in regards to your saying it sounds good for a first entry, it was a noncomedic self-depracation. I guess the consensus is that I'm shitty and have hardly improved, it looks like. You're the second person who figured I'm just some noob in the reviews for this fight, at least.

I hope I didn't come off seeming harsh. The thing is, music comes quick and easy to some and it's slow and hard for others. A lot of my stuff is extremely amature in comparison to some (most?) of the stuff that gets submitted here and I have been playing music on and off for close to 10 years now. As someone who has done both, I can tell you that learning to play music is a lot like learning a second language. It's a series of very long, even plateaus separated by short, quick leaps. You may find that something hasn't improved in ages, but if you look back you'll find subtle abilities you've aquired. Ten years of playing guitar and I still couldn't play a solo or play lead to save my life. Hopefully if I keep trying I'll get there, but for now I'm stuck on a plateau of rhythm guitar only, which is why I sometimes switch to keyboards or something else to break up the monotony. I can see clearly where my vocals have improved, and my guitar playing has improved in that i can change up my strumming pattern somewhat while singing and that was a plateau that took a very, very long time to get off of.

mkilly wrote: This song particularly I did about twelve complete takes before I came to something I thought was usably good and absent of errors. I'm trying very hard to be a real boy that makes real, tolerable music. Not to be a little whiny emo bitch about it all, but it's clear from the reviews I'm not there. Please excuse my flippant remark but you'll understand I'm more than a little aggravated that I don't seem to be getting anywhere, and that my voice and guitar playing still seem to be strictly amateur.

Again, I know where you're coming from. I've gotten to the point now where I can record a couple takes and just let it go, but for the longest time I would record and re-record songs for days at a time, only to decide that I'd hopelessly messed it up and then I would erase it and start over.

mkilly wrote:I don't know if you saw from my link there but this was my first SongFight entry proper in almost a year. I've started stuff but then don't finish or submit it because I don't think it's good enough to do so. I'm pretty ashamed of some of the shit I've submitted, actually. I'm not looking for sympathy or consolation because I know I have a small sect of people who say they like my stuff, just trying to explain the position in which I find myself here.

Don't give up because other people think you sound amateur. Even snotty, insensitive people like me I did like your song and I think songs can outshine the ability of the people that write them and the production of the people that record them. The song is the all-important thing, and if YOU like the song then everyone else can take a hike. You can learn from people's reviews, but take them w/ a grain of salt. I only feel bold enough to give some people bad reviews because I know someone else on this board will love the songs I hate and I feel good that I can write good reviews about songs that I love that I know other people on this board will hate.

A separate reply to everyone else who responded in Markus' behalf:

I find it very cool that everyone stands up for someone here. I don't consider myself someone that generally needs to be stood up against, and I really am a torch-bearer for song-writing as a separate distinction from ability and production and had I spent more time listening to each song, more of that might have come out - but on this occasion my reviews represented a quick listen. Anyway, I commend you all and I hope I didn't offend.

My thought to Marcus is thus: I see that you have a group of listeners that enjoy, and possibly admire your ideas, the core structure of your songs. You should treasure that man (you probably do...) cause that has as much value as admiring technical know how or any other developed skill.

What Spud said, plus

this

How many other people have I recorded two songs about, and for? . I don't like your music in some ironic, 'bless him for trying' way. I like you because you make good songs.

Leaf wrote:My thought to Marcus is thus: I see that you have a group of listeners that enjoy, and possibly admire your ideas, the core structure of your songs. You should treasure that man (you probably do...) cause that has as much value as admiring technical know how or any other developed skill.

I can only hope that I have such loyal fans some day

Well if songwriting is so much more important than the production quality... I expect to start winning soon.

That would mean that you have to write some kind of song first doesn't it?

zing!

Kill Me Sarah - thanks very much for the comment. You made my day

I'm glad to hear it's only supposed to be about writing, not production. Writing is hard enough!

2 songs - 0 votes - must try harder ...

Well, it never does actually say anywhere, as far as I know, what criteria the voters/reviewers should use to determine what songs they like and/or who to vote for. "Internet musicians enter their work" and we make an mp3 (if it was just writing lyrics we'd vote on those, not necessarily on a recorded song, right?). Anyway, I like the fact that it's left somewhat open as to what criteria to use. It makes the site more fun. Personally I don't focus on lyrics that much because I'm not good at it. This has come up a few times and generally it is agreed that each listener is listening for their own mix of songwriting/arrangement/production/etc. and that's one of the strengths of getting reviews. You'll get people's opinions and ideas on all of these things. It goes without saying that packaging your songwriting in a more accessible or pleasing recording will probably get you more votes as people will be more inclined to like it/listen to the words if the song is listenable.
-bill

My personal view is that the song is the combination of lyrics and music, not just one of the other. Together, these make up the creative content, not the performance skills or production values. Depending on genre, the production can be a big part of the songwriting, especially with electronica and other production-dependent styles. Obviously, they are often hard to separate. A bad song well produced can often win out over a good song poorly performed. That's life. The voters are only human.

Oh, not this again.

There are a couple good points you both made though. I personally am not really a production minded person, though on occasion it does make a difference, even to me. But what's great about this site is that there ARE people who are heavily into production and those people can help out noobs like me, and hopefully, the opposite is also true and some of my feedback is valuable to them.