Decision 2008!

[Märk]

I really don't understand where people get the idea that Canadian health care is 'free'.
I pay $44/month. Every month. If I need to go to a doctor, sure, there's no money out of my pocket, but to fill a prescription, I pay. If I end up in the hospital for 2 years with a serious disease, yeah, my ass is covered. But in the 20 years I've been of legal age and paying premiums, I've been to the doctor's office maybe 6 times, and I've never been in the hospital. Let's do some math here: (44X12)X20= $10,560 that I've handed over to health care. If I were paying out of pocket for all the health care I've received, let's see here, a visit to the doc without coverage is about $150X6= $900. Tell me again why health care is free?

[Caravan Ray]

Obama looks at America and sees a racist, imperialist, greedy, corrupt demon that needs "change". And by "change", he means further distancing America from the philosophies, economic principles, and moral standards that helped make it what it REALLY is--the freest, least racist, least imperialist, most prosperous, most just, and most generous world power in the history of humankind.

Our nation is great. I totally agree with you. However, the current administration has done more harm than any other to rob it of these qualities you admire. The "change" that's needed is to return to what makes us great, and to retreat from the assault we're under from the most abusive executive branch ever (self-)empowered.

Yes, Roymond is right - your nation is great, though flawed...but "the freest, least racist, least imperialist, most prosperous, most just, and most generous world power in the history of humankind"!?!?!!? Ease up there tiger! That is a bit like saying, "He's the sweetest and kindest paedophile I've ever met"

[mico saudad]

Obama looks at America and sees a racist, imperialist, greedy, corrupt demon that needs "change". And by "change", he means further distancing America from the philosophies, economic principles, and moral standards that helped make it what it REALLY is--the freest, least racist, least imperialist, most prosperous, most just, and most generous world power in the history of humankind.

This is a really enlightened interview with Bloomberg and Swarzenegger.
I particularly love how they talk about progress and the issues and what the impediments are to getting things done.

I think Obama's concept of change relates not to the fundamental American ideals, but to the way we conduct our political process. And I think it also about the sorts of issues roymond is getting at, too (and his position is supported a bit by the subsequent comparison of America to a bunch of pederasts by an outside observer ).

People like Bloomberg and Swarzenegger and Ed Randell and others are about getting things done and finding new ways to create consensus to get things done. If you want to live in the America you see when you look at it, I would think you would want people like Obama, Bloomberg, Swarzenegger, and Randell leading it.

When our children look at America and believe that it is great it will be partly because of our collective decision to put petty partisan distraction on notice and start electing leaders like that. Obama's not going to do that by force of will and charisma. He's not a messiah. But he's one of the few voices out there who tries to appeal to our sense of civic responsibility.

[Billy's Little Trip]

I really don't understand where people get the idea that Canadian health care is 'free'.
I pay $44/month. Every month. If I need to go to a doctor, sure, there's no money out of my pocket, but to fill a prescription, I pay. If I end up in the hospital for 2 years with a serious disease, yeah, my ass is covered. But in the 20 years I've been of legal age and paying premiums, I've been to the doctor's office maybe 6 times, and I've never been in the hospital. Let's do some math here: (44X12)X20= $10,560 that I've handed over to health care. If I were paying out of pocket for all the health care I've received, let's see here, a visit to the doc without coverage is about $150X6= $900. Tell me again why health care is free?

I'll pass a bill that gives everyone back their money that they pay for health care at the end of each year if they didn't have to use it. Also I will pass a law that all coke machines have at least 3 different brands of beer.
Save the planet, it's the only one with BEER!
BLT 2008

[Hoblit]

1. I really don't understand where people get the idea that Canadian health care is 'free'.

2.I'll pass a bill that gives everyone back their money that they pay for health care at the end of each year if they didn't have to use it.

3.Also I will pass a law that all coke machines have at least 3 different brands of beer.
Save the planet, it's the only one with BEER!
BLT 2008

1. I'm not sure if anyone is really stating that its FREE health care but that its affordable. (If not just a forced savings in the convenience/disguise of tax)

2. You can't do that. It won't work. Private health insurance works much the same way. You are basically paying either your own bill for the long haul ahead of time or you're just losing the gamble and paying someone else's way. Which is fine because you'd be HEALTHY for your return.

3. You can't POSSIBLY KNOW THAT!

[Billy's Little Trip]

3. The other planets have something similar, which is fermented bile and brewed on Uranus. Not quite beer, but I hear it gets you fukzored.

[Caravan Ray]

3. The other planets have something similar, which is fermented bile and brewed on Uranus. Not quite beer, but I hear it gets you fukzored.

Your talking nonsense. Of course they have beer on other planets. Why else would aliens think it's such a good idea to fly millions of miles to earth just to stick probes up our anuses.

[pegor]

3. The other planets have something similar, which is fermented bile and brewed on Uranus. Not quite beer, but I hear it gets you fukzored.

Your talking nonsense. Of course they have beer on other planets. Why else would aliens think it's such a good idea to fly millions of miles to earth just to stick probes up our anuses.

maybe they're looking for a microbrew.

I'd vote BLT for president as long as Melvin was his chief of staff (in a carl rove brain way). The supreme court would keep calling up telling them to turn the music down. who knew there were fiscal conservatives in Canukotopia. Next we'll hear there are flannel bikinis. and snow gators

[anti-m]

I work in the US health care system such as it is... so I have plenty to say about the way things work over here.

But I refuse to engage in such conversation over the internet -- this conversation is best had over beer. Lots of beer. Lots of interplanetary beer.

I will interject this: for those of you keeping score at home: I pay 569.48 a month for health insurance. Well, technically my employer is paying that fee, which is good for me, a bit of a bummer for my employer.

In any case, 40 bucks a month or so is a real bargain for healthcare.

Also, in case it isn't clear, I do love the US. I just happen to hate the current administration -- and there are many things I would love to see improved upon here.

[roymond]

In any case, 40 bucks a month or so is a real bargain for healthcare.

Yeah, I was thinking lots of people pay more than that for coffee a week. Insurance means it's there when you need it. I pray I pay in more than I need to withdraw, I mean I don't really want to say "I just had a lung transplant, but I saved $200k because I only paid $3,000 this year". I'd rather pay $3,000 and not use it, but I'd also like to know it's there when I need it because people go bankrupt over basic medical issues.

[melvin]

In any case, 40 bucks a month or so is a real bargain for healthcare.

Yeah, I was thinking lots of people pay more than that for coffee a week. Insurance means it's there when you need it. I pray I pay in more than I need to withdraw, I mean I don't really want to say "I just had a lung transplant, but I saved $200k because I only paid $3,000 this year". I'd rather pay $3,000 and not use it, but I'd also like to know it's there when I need it because people go bankrupt over basic medical issues.

Okay, here's the reality in Canada:

- If you make $50,000/year and live in Ontario, you pay a $50/month health premium.

- However, the average Canadian also pays 47.5% of their income in federal, provincial, and municipal taxes. Last year, the Ontario government spent 45% of its take on health care.

- If you add the health premium to the portion of your taxes that go to health care, I'd conservatively estimate that the average citizen of Ontario pays $6,000/year.

- Someone like Märk (who hasn't had any major medical expenses in the past 10 years) could have set that $500/month aside at 6% interest and accumulated $80,000. But that's not the most important point.

- THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT: In 2006, the average wait time in Canada, from referral by a general practitioner to treatment by a medical specialist was 17.8 weeks. The wait for surgery or therapeutic treatment was 18.3 weeks. Five million Canadians do not have a family doctor. In 2006, two million Canadians tried and failed to find a family doctor. There are only 30 million people in Canada!

I have no argument against private (or even public) insurance that offers protection against catastrophic medical expenses. But to force Canadians to pay into a government monopoly that provides sub-par care and making it illegal to purchase private care is a violation of fundamental human rights. Namely, the right to use your own money earned by your own labour to pay a willing doctor to save your life.

I really hope the U.S. does not go down this path.

[anti-m]

Ok, grab a beer folks --

My gut instinct is that healthcare is not a limitless resource -- it takes a lot of time and money to churn out those physicians! For that reason, I'm of the opinion that whatever system a society uses, the availability of healthcare needs to be in some respect rationed. (Rationing is a VERRRRY dirty word when talking about healthcare, I know.)

The US rations healthcare passively -- by nature of the fact that many of us can't afford it / are uninsured / are underinsured / etc.
Canada evidently rations healthcare actively, but what with may be poor oversight. (I honestly haven't researched the Canadian system thoroughly enough to speak intelligently on this issue)

What we NEED, I think, is a system that rations healthcare intelligently. Any ideas?

A footnote -- Oregon has had a VERY interesting and controversial system for covering low-income folks. Here's how I understand it to work in a nutshell:

A board gets together and puts together a book of treatments. (I'm fairly certain that they use the CPT codes that most of the insurance industry uses to compile this book) Essentially they take EVERYthing that you can have done in a doctor's office (Flu shot? Kidney transplant? Vaccination?) and prioritize it. The prioritizing process is evidently complex and contentious. The board considers not only things like illness severity, but things like post-treatment longevity.

After the list is made, the board makes a financial determination -- and draws a line somewhere in the book. For that year, anything above the line is covered. Anything below the line is not. The line moves from year to year, based on availability of funds. I'm under the impression that the board meets less frequently to consider adjustments to the priority list itself, but the list is occasionally adjusted.

I think the Oregon plan has some interesting ideas that could be put to use on a grander scale.

PS -- Melvin, sign me up for one of those 6% interest accounts you've got there! My mutual funds are taking a beating!

[Paco Del Stinko]

There's an interesting episode of PBS' Frontline running recently, where the correspondant travels around the world comparing certain countries healthcare systems against the U.S. Although I missed the first quarter of the program, he did not go to Canada. He did go to England, Japan, Germany, Taiwan and Switzerland. I missed the section about England.

I don't want to go on and on here, so hopefully you'll catch the program. But he interviewed doctors and presidents and asked them how their systems worked. All had popular favor with the public, and I believe that all were also subsidised by the government. Most had made it illegal for insurance companys to make a profit, they made their money by competing for services. Some countries had Big Brother-ish oversight, some had no waiting times for visits, some two weeks wait. But all interviewed were dumbfounded at the idea that someone could go bankrupt through medical bills, as is common in the U.S.

I've heard complaints about Canada's national plan, and an 18 week wait for attention is suckful, but at least there is a national plan. And there is no valid reason that the richest country in the history of the world, the U.S. of A, can't provide basic health care for all of it's citizens. Except that it might upset insurance company shareholders profit margins. I sure hope that I don't get sick, as I am screwed if I do.

[Paco Del Stinko]

Here's a link to the Frontline page. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... dtheworld/

[Caravan Ray]

I don't really understand how health care works here - I've never been sick.

I know 1.5% of my gross income is is paid as a Medicare levy. This pays for Medicare which is our free health system. If I get sick I can go to a public hospital or see a GP who bulk-bills and Medicare pays for it.

But we are also encouraged to get private health care (there are tax rebates if you have private health care) - so I pay abou $180 a month for that for my family of 3. That covers us for pretty much everything with private hospitals, single rooms choice of doctors etc.

The level of care in private of public is pretty much the same - generally the same doctors work in both stystems. My wife has spent a lot of time in hospital over the past few years - so the private care has worked out well. In one instance though, she even moved out of a private hospital to a public one because the level of care was better at the public.

I think there are waiting lists here for elective surgery if you are a public patient - but I think actual sick people can usually get a bed when required.

As I said - I really know nothing about this stuff, nor am I particularly interested - but my wife, my brother and a lot of my friends are doctors, all who have worked in various places around the world - and I know that there is a general consensus among them that despite any problems in our system - they would never work in the USA - and rule number 1 when travelling is never, EVER get sick in the USA.

[Billy's Little Trip]

3. The other planets have something similar, which is fermented bile and brewed on Uranus. Not quite beer, but I hear it gets you fukzored.

Your talking nonsense. Of course they have beer on other planets. Why else would aliens think it's such a good idea to fly millions of miles to earth just to stick probes up our anuses.

Good point....
Caravan Ray 2008

[glennny]

Wow! This thread has got my blood boiling. I watched the link Melvin put up. Actually I only survived 30 minutes of his ignorant rant. I listen to Mike Savage all the time, I love to hate Mr. Savage and I'm still trying to figure out how the Right thinks.

1st off, Obama is no where near a racist. Rev Wright's whole talk was pretty darn accurate. I was not the least bit offended by it. Maybe it's because Alameda county is my home, I don't know.

It was enlightening to see Melvin's reality of health care in Canada. It makes it sound like a wash for a middle class folk. I easily spend 45% of my income on health care. However, it's not a wash when you're talking about the poor, the elderly, and the truly severely sick.

My story: Back in 1993 my mother was misdiagnosed for Flabitus (sp?) (too much blood clotting), They told her it was psychosomatic. It developed further until her lungs were working at about 10% capacity. They then did some exploratory surgery to see where and how many clots there were. They ruptured her aorta and had to go into emergency triple bypass surgery. She survived. However she was diagnosed to have 2 years to live. With a successful heart and 2 lung transplant she could live for 15 years. We opted for the transplant. We waited 11 months for a donor (if more motorcyclists were donors it would be quicker {there should be a law} ). She got the transplant. 6 days of surgery and she did not survive. (December 23rd 1994,). This of course all sucks beyond description, but it's not the worst part. All the medical expenses added up to 2 million dollars ( back when gas was 1/4 of what it is now, housing was 1/2 what it is now and food was 1/3 what it is now). Insurance paid for 80%, leaving my Dad with $400,000 to pay. Devastated by the loss of his spouse, this bill which lead to bankruptcy, and 4 kids to deal with 22 (me), 18,16, and 6, he lost his mind and had a mental breakdown which he has not nor likely ever will recover from.

Insurance sucks when you don't need it and is great when you do. I don't mind paying for the poor, the elderly, and the disabled. Universal health care still sounds good to me.

To be honest my favorite candidate of the race was Ron Paul. Weird for a Liberal Democrat like myself, but i always have a soft spot for Goldwater conservatism. I also really liked Richardson (thanks for the tip Paco). All though I totally disagree with RP about health care and immigration, i thought he was the wisest and most honest of all the candidates, especially when it comes to the economy.

Given the 3 I like Obama the most, but I will be happy with Clinton. McCain will be a huge improvement on Bush. I'm just happy I don't have to worry about Giulliani or Romney.

I love America, and by that I mean the United States, and by the United States I mean the United States of America, not the United States of Mexico, but I do as well love the United states of Mexico.

[Billy's Little Trip]

Wow, that's a sad story Glenny. Losing your Mother so young and part of your your Dad.

[melvin]

Uh, yeah, that's just horrible. I'm so sorry to hear that, Glennny.

[mico saudad]

that is horrible glennny. If anything positive can come from that it's that people like you who have bourne the brunt of the rotten parts of our healthcare system have the insight and fire to convince the rest of us to make some real changes.

[mico saudad]

Okay I have to get this off my chest or I'm going to pop:

Claiming something is true when it is certainly not should be seen as akin to farting in public. This includes lies of omission and the selective presentation of facts using psychological techniques.

If it sounds like a crude discussion it's because it should be. It should be as crude a thing to manipulate people as it is to let out a juicy nasty smelly fart in public.

Socially what reactions should we have to it? If it happens by accident but is really noticeable it should just be sort of funny, the kind of thing you can't help laughing at the person about. And totally embarassing for the one who did it. When it's done intentionally it should be taken with the purposeful rudeness with which it's given.

If someone tells a purposeful lie into a microphone I see it as the equivalent rudeness of hauling down the pants and blasting one directly into the microphone, through the amplifiers, and directly into the ears of everyone listening. How would you respond to that?

How do we treat it now? We're like a big nasty family that just sits around and farts and belches and doesn't have any idea how obscene and unrefined it is.

Except the real problem is that farting can be as funny and entertaining as a Jerry Springer episode. And so the media tolerates and thrives on it as much as sex and violence. No one realizes that on TV there's no such thing as news anymore (there are some notable exceptions that will most likely die out soon). It's just one giant Tarrence and Phillip episode. Forever and ever, Amen.

So over the past eight years I've gritted my teeth as we've just been collectively held down by the government and farted on and been dared to do anything about it. "Perception makes reality, and who are you to say different?" Bull. Nature beats hubris every time. We only appear to win when we correctly sense the direction of the wind - when the course we set does not involve a headlong collision with reality. And then when reality does hit, twisted perception is used at any expense to explain reality away.

<edit: candidate-specific stuff redacted so that people will focus on my point and not the particular candidates>

Watching the news makes me feel like I'm the only person on the planet with a sense of smell in a world that just absolutely reeks. Please, people, tell me that we're going to stop letting people fart in our faces.

[erik]

She is seen as a "fighter" and someone who doesn't ever give up no matter what the reality is. Haven't we figured out that's not really what we should be looking for in a leader right now?

I dunno, I think that Hillary being in the race up until a certain point is a good thing for the Democratic party. It keeps their party in the news, it keeps people talking, and it keeps focus away from the Republicans. I don't know if that makes for a good leader, but it makes her an awesome wingman.