The Song Fight Bulletin Board

I leave in excellent company.

I couldn't agree more, Jim. The four of us should start a band.

SPUD

Spud wrote:I couldn't agree more, Jim. The four of us should start a band.

SPUD

Last year's Nur Ein, third round...the beginnings of the Worldly Self Assurance.

This year's Nur Ein, third round...could it be the beginning of a Tyrrell/Spud/Starfinger/Caravan Ray supergroup??? That would be epic.

I'm gone.

Not surprising - that song was being done while removalists were dismantling the house around me.

Shame though, I have already done my entry for next week - I planned on entering the mp3 file attached to my signature (which would have been strictly cheating, because it isn't actually my fart).

My family has been couch surfing with various friends and relatives in Brisbane and Sydney for the past week or so - we head to NZ on Tuesday. We still have no house arranged in NZ. It may be several weeks before I am able to record again.

Good luck to all for the rest on the competition.

I will try to catch up with proceedings at a later date. I haven't been able to listen to any of round 3 yet to see the standard of stuff that so unceremoniously dumped me.

NUR EIN!!!

starfinger wrote:goodbye music, hello real world!

That's still on the air? Puck was my favorite.

Better late than never: The Blitz Reviews, in podcast format.

Notes to self: don't make up the reviews on the spot. Don't try to sing along with any of the songs. Don't forget Jim's name.

Adam, before I dump heaps of praise on you, I need to tell you that Ein rhymes with "wine."

I only listened to the review of my song (natch), but it's awesome. I don't dispute a thing (although I often wonder why I spend so much time on lyrics--for Niveous, I guess) and the narrative approach is actually quite nice. Sometimes I think people take offense to written comments because they lack vocal inflections, etc. and I felt pretty "safe" listening to your (surprisingly!) soothing voice.

One thing I haven't figured out yet with Logic is how to get my voice sounding the way I want it. None of the presets flatter me, although the "female" ones are better than the "male" ones. Anyway, I think I made some strides this week (i.e. Round Five).

Again, thanks for the comments.

Yeah Adam, thanks for the insightful review. Really one of the rare useful reviews I've had, where it doesn't just point out what I already know is wrong, but has some insight into why and also points out something that hadn't occurred to me. I do have some replies, which I promise are not defensive (and don't even sound that way I think, I just want you to keep reading):

1. The mysterious clicks and pops are because my CPU was having a hard time with this song. I think that using a Group track for my "choir" did not save as much processing as it is supposed to. I had all those voices going into one Group track, with compression and delay on that track only. And still my CPU meter was high. It was never orange, but at the end of the recording session (you know, minutes after the song was due) I couldn't even listen to it because the playback was so full of stutters and clicks. You would think that Cubase would compensate for that in order to provide a clean mixdown, but it didn't. Hence clicks and pops in my mix with no outside explanation.

2. The mix is way too hot, as noted, and I appreciate the analysis of how MP3's work. The key seems to be just to keep the peaks under any kind of clipping (which I THOUGHT Ozone was supposed to be doing) and thus avoid the weird MP3 re-build thing you talked about that I didn't understand. But I would like to point out that the MP3 also does not clip on my nearfields. Maybe I just got used to it or something. I do know that the lead vox were clipped when I recorded them, and not in mixdown. Might that be some of what people heard? I'd love to do a remix of the song-- hope I can find the time. I have a new CPU (3.2ghz P4 instead of existing 2.0ghz P4) in a box. When I finally install it opening this project is one of the first things I'll do-- I want to see that CPU meter go down. It's SUPPOSED to. Note to everyone: Increasing my RAM by 2GB did nothing to help give Cubase more capacity. In fact, I have yet to see any improvement in anything due to the increased RAM. I suspect that I was never using the 1GB of RAM I already had.

3. Thanks for the advice about the bridge. You're absolutely right, it needs some motion in the arrangement, and I was so absorbed in my layers of vocals that it didn't occur to me that it was lacking. I think maybe an arpeggiated synth underneath might have done the trick. Or maybe a simple counter-melody line in strings.

4. I'm with Frank a little bit in wondering why I bother caring so much about my lyrics, when they so rarely get noticed or mentioned. I'm not going to stop, but it's disconcerting to go in thinking I really wrote some kickass lyrics and discover that nobody cares. Or, that nobody cares enough to say "good job". Obviously, though, if they were *terrible* you'd have said something-- so it's one of those things you have to do just good enough; that or have a really catchy turn of phrase to catch the ear. Long, drawn-out story lines or involved wordplay will probably go unnoticed online unless you happen to garner a fan who really takes time to listen.

5. I was pretty happy with my bass part, and thought it added some melodic interest here. But note to self: bass parts don't get noticed unless they are way more obvious that I am probably willing or capable of making them.

Thanks again,

JB

Just listened to the podcast Adam! I have to say I completely agree with you on my song, all the things you said were more or less the things I didnt like about it, so thanks for a... vindicating review, I guess. Also I'm a fan of Wolf Parade and have Apologies to the Queen Mary, so it's probably a case of them influencing my sound rather than a coincidence, but thanks for the comparison.

Thanks for taking the time to review, Adam! Thanks also for noting the goodness of the WSA track.

For future reference, the voices are:

Higher w/angelic overtones: Thanks for The Frisbee
Lower w/English accent: Pedro
Lower w/o English accent: Melvin

And, of course, that's Glenn pulling the slide guitar heroics.

melvin wrote:And, of course, that's Glenn pulling the slide guitar heroics.

That's single or triple not double N Glen as in Phillips not Case or around these parts "glennny"

I for one would be really bummed, JB and Frankie, if you decided to put less effort into your lyrics, for whatever that's worth.

JB wrote:

4. I'm with Frank a little bit in wondering why I bother caring so much about my lyrics, when they so rarely get noticed or mentioned. I'm not going to stop, but it's disconcerting to go in thinking I really wrote some kickass lyrics and discover that nobody cares. Or, that nobody cares enough to say "good job". Obviously, though, if they were *terrible* you'd have said something-- so it's one of those things you have to do just good enough; that or have a really catchy turn of phrase to catch the ear. Long, drawn-out story lines or involved wordplay will probably go unnoticed online unless you happen to garner a fan who really takes time to listen.

I think this is a function of the format of Song Fight. Speaking only for myself, lyrics don't hit me for a long time, weeks or months. The melodies and rhythms are immediate and about all I have time to really ingest in the course of a week or 3 days. When I read something, I can back up and re-read and and "hear clearly" what the author is saying. Vocal noises convolute words. I think kickass lyrics get realized over a longer span of time, in the meantime in this format, all you can do is avoid obvious cliches. I usually don't seek out lyrics, because more often than not they disappoint. I love poetry, rock lyrics tend to be really awful poetry. I tend to agree with Frank Zappa that most rock lyrics are "place a vocal noise here". So I've listened to and loved your song since it was released, I don't know what the words are, all i know is nothing pissed me off. They certainly might be the next "Boots of Spanish Leather", but it will be about July 15th, on my 93rd listen where I'll say "I wonder what he is talking about" and I'll piece it all together and appreciate your lyrics.

Lyrics is important. Them's the part of the song that's conversing with the brain, while the music is busily chatting up the body's emotion. Maybe I'm oversimplifying, and I'm sure y'all could give examples of the opposite being true.
/2¢

Lunkhead wrote:I for one would be really bummed, JB and Frankie, if you decided to put less effort into your lyrics, for whatever that's worth.

I honestly don't think there's much chance of that. We were just commiserating really.

Good way to look at it, RG.

I'd go even further. In my opinion,

The lyrics are the function of the song, and the music is the form. (In songs that have lyrics at all, mind you.)

The two must work together, of course, and poor quality in either is detrimental to the whole. Bad instrumentation/performance/recording quality can make a brilliant song unpleasant. Bad lyrics can make a beautiful song pointless.

Um, I don't know what my point was, exactly. Maybe just that I'm starting to better understand how I look at songs. I think being a Nur Ein judge would be a good (but very demanding) experience.

glennny wrote:

melvin wrote:And, of course, that's Glenn pulling the slide guitar heroics.

That's single or triple not double N Glen as in Phillips not Case or around these parts "glennny"

Oops! Don't know how I made that egregious error. It's all Glennny all the time, baby!

jimtyrrell wrote:The lyrics are the function of the song, and the music is the form. (In songs that have lyrics at all, mind you.)

Or perhaps the lyrics are the substance of the song and the music is the form?

I think that ties in with what Glennny and RG are saying. For me the songs with the long repeat listen value are the ones with good lyrics. Also, personally, I find writing lyrics at all to be very difficult, so I'm probably more likely to be impressed by good lyrics.

Anyway, Adam's post reminded me that I never posted my reviews for this round, so here they are. I haven't listened to Adam's podcast yet, so excuse me if I'm repeating stuff he said.

Adam Adamant
You're intro is probably 2x too long. I like the guest vocalists. I like the way the voices are panned and mixed. I'm liking the keyboard stuff but that drum beat is getting pretty annoying. It's kind of pounding on my head. Nice vibe in the chorus. I really could use a change in the drum beat. Good group vox, adding in a couple more tracks it sounds like. I like the female vocalist's "aah ahh aaahh". Nice lyrics. Good song! This was my favorite of yours from the contest.

ADD
I like the bouncy feel. Good melodies. Good lyrics. Some of the notes on the left channel keyboard sound a bit too circusy to me. I guess you used a sample of a choir in the right channel throughout, but I would have liked to hear a choir of your actual voice, since I really like your voice. Good song though.

BLT
I like the rock groove. Nice shakers. I'm not so into the dissonant moments with the rhythm guitars. I also don't like the harmony vocal track in the chorus so much, it sounds off pitch or something. The choral vocals are too quiet for me, I barely noticed them, which is not good since that's your only challenge fulfillment moment as far as I can tell. Cool bridge. I actually really dislike your lyrics this time, and I don't really see what they have to do with the title, though perhaps I'm being dense.

Bryan Kandel
Guitars sound great as usual. I'm not so into the world music groove, for lack of a better term. Musically this is kind of predictable. I really don't like the lyrics that ends with "that didn't explode", that sounds clunky to me. It sounds like there are some off notes in the vocals here and there. I wish you'd brought in the choral vocals earlier.

Frankie Big Face
Pretty intro. I think the treatment on the vocals makes them sound like they don't quite fit with everything else. Maybe it's just the reverb or something, or is there a phaser or lesley on them or something? I don't know. I like how you tie in the instrumentation/music to the lyrics. I wish the acoustic guitar were fuller sounding and louder in the mix. I wish it were more of the primary instrument than the synth stuff. Your singing's a little rough this time, but I like your voice and wish you'd done more choral vocals with your own voice.

Glenn and Rachael
Sounds like there are some tuning issues with the guitars perhaps? The "tonic and gin" line feels very shoe-horned. There are some pitchy moments in Rachael's first verse. Catchy chorus. Very very catchy. Glenn's vocals sound a little thin in his verse. The verse lyrics seem kind of heavy handed with the message. I like the chorus lyrics better as they're slightly more subtle. Sounds like some more pitch issues in the final choruses. Wow, really great choral vocals. Great chorus repeat outro.

Jim Tyrrell
Ah, I was wondering if anyone would do a cappella, and here it is. Very smooth singing, sounds great. Nice snaps. Doh, lyrics about football. Not a subject dear to my heart. I'm hoping for some kind of change up in the melody. Ah, the lyrics are going more interesting places. Doh, no change in the basic melody, which is too bad. Feels a bit short and insubstantial, unfortunately.

JBB
Nice waltz feel. Whoa, holy s#$@ is this loud. Ow. Nice "do doo" stuff. Nice vocals, though they sound distorted. Aargh, clipping. Great singing, melody, and lyrics though. Suddenly the guitar switched to a plugged in acoustic and started to sound terrible, what's up with that? Doh, more clippy/poppy noises. Wow, super sweet choral vocals. Awesome. Very awesome. Is that your ladyfriend singing in there, too? She sounds good. (I assume that's her doing the reading towards the end, right? I like that part. She did a good job.) I like the siren sample. Dang, this is a really great song, but I'm having a hard time even listening to it because of how noisy/distorted it is. Very conflicting feelings. I want more, but at the same time I kind of want to turn it off. Please please rerecord/remix this one.

Ken Mahru
Nice mellow groove for the verse. Ooh, you swore. I actually like it because you don't normally swear. Good catchy chorus. The second verse is a little too internally rhymey for me. I like the doubled vox in the second chorus. Nice keyboard arpeggio lines. Very sweet choral vocals in the bridge, and nice change up in chord progression/feel. Good guitar/vox breakdown starting the third verse. The ending feels a bit abrupt. Overall though a solid pop song.

Octothorpe
Whoa, I'm under the sea. Nice harp. Nice drum beat. Ooh, I'm in an undersea lounge. I'm imagining you all dressed up in a nautical theme, performing in a tiki lounge bar. Oh man, you need a video for this song. The chorus makes me imaging you against a psychedelic background. I'm not quite as into the chorus as the verse. This is some pretty prime Octothorpe, though. I like the story in the lyrics. OK, this is going on a bit long. The novelty is kind of wearing off. Abrupt ending but I actually like it, I think it works.

Paco del Stinko
Cool drum intro. I'm not sure your singing style really suits the seriousness of the initial lyrics. Some of your phrasing sounds a little awkward. Some of the rhymes seem a bit shoehorned. Nice choral vocals, though they were kind of brief. Nice change in the chords after the second choral vocal moment. Whoa, psychedelic freakout! Cool. Nice guitar playing there. This song sounds like it should be part of a rock opera or something. I'm not sure how well it stands on its own, though.

Ross Durand
Great guitar. Nice drums and bass, too. Dang, this really rocks. I'm bopping my head. Ooh, you swore too! This title is bringing out the curse words. Again, you don't normally swear much, so it kind of kicks it up a notch in this case and doesn't feel gratuitous. Holy crap, the choral vocal moment is hilarious. Sweet solo after that. Yes, cowbell!! Yes, more cowbell! Ha ha, again, the choral vocal moment kills me. I think this is actually my favorite song of yours from your round 0-4 entries. If you hadn't been immune I would have ranked it pretty high.

Starfinger
You kind of remind me of an 80's avant garde electronic musician here or something. I think you also remind me of Mike Patton again. These verses are kind of dull though, unfortunately. They're a bit plodding. I like the chorus a lot, though. Catchy melody and good beat. Overall I guess this song was a little too odd for me to find enough to latch onto with it, outside of the chorus.

Tex Beaumont and the Dirty Hearts
Creepy atmosphere. I like the bass and samples. Ooh, creepy German samples (?). Again, is that KOMPRESSOR in there or what? It's a bit too repetitive and almost kind of ambient for me. The choral vocals could have been more prominent.

TWSA
Nice guitars and ebow. First vocals seem a little melodramatic. Good backup vox. Ooh, wow, that switch to the second vocalist is really nice. Really nice backups there. I like the snare drum coming in, marching things along. Cool loud part, though I wish the drums had switched to a more normal beat, with a ride or hi-hat. Whoa, holy crap, awesome awesome choral vocals there. Nice slide solo. I actually almost wish there was a little more soloing, though I'm probably the only person who would ever think that. Oooh, more awesome choral vocals. I really love that high soaring part. Good song though I wish there had been a lot more of the louder section with the awesome choral vocals and less of the intro feeling type quiet first part.

Adam! Awesome review. I'm glad that you liked what I did and picked up the use of the title. I'm a lover not a fighter, lol. And yes, I LOVE a snappy snare. It is one of those things that drives me nuts when a snare sounds like a box of mush or too quiet in the mix. It's one of those things I spend time on and sometimes duplicate 2 or 3 snare tracks, each with their own EQing, etc, that I mix back together just to get it the way I like it, so I'm glad you noticed.

Also, I'm happy that you gave such a high score. After reading Frank and Glennny's review, whom I respect musically, I was starting to second guess myself, because I really dig it. Even when I started listening to your review and my song came on, I instantly went from a blah mood to a groovin' mood. Sure, the lyrics aren't earth shattering, and neither were any of the lyrics in this fight, but the song is a groovin' punkyfunk dance song and that's what I set out to do. Also, I thought I worked in some catchy metaphors and innuendos to make it a little bit clever and fun, at least.

Thanks for the reviews guys, always insightful. You guys are gentler with me than you might need to be: I think that's one of the worst songs I've ever sent in here. Adam!, I enjoyed all of your audio comments and was chuckling a few times as well. Id like to try some audio reviews one of these days although I don't know if my voice would be as soothing. Maybe as a midnight DJ, or something.

I think lyrics are sometimes trumped by rhythm and melody, which are often more portable after the song is over, but are certainly very important. However, saying a lot with a little, and getting your message or imagery across without stumbling all over yourself is quite the accomplishment. Something like that. Maybe Frankie or JB can say it better.

jb wrote:4. I'm with Frank a little bit in wondering why I bother caring so much about my lyrics, when they so rarely get noticed or mentioned

In my words. Songs appeal to different people in different ways. Quite often here on SF, we hear what's wrong with our songs and the good stuff is just expected.
A song with any holding power is one that keeps the listeners interest, both musically and lyrically. True, quite often the lyrics aren't the driving force at first, it's usually the rhythm and melody. But the lyrics are the longevity. The more a person listens, the more they relate to it, like it, understand it, etc. Without depth in the lyrics, the song dies off.

Example:
The Knack, My Sharona - Who didn't love this driving beat when they first heard it? Who was sick of it in about 3 months? ..
...Actually, it's still fun to hear My Sharona once in a while for nostalgic reasons.

Gorden Lightfoot, Wreck Of The Edmund Fitzgerald - Who wondered what the hell this is doing on my rock station? Who then noticed what an awesome song it was after a few listens and thinks this song is awesome 30 years later?

Ok, not great examples, but it's all I could think of of the top of my head. You know what I mean. Maybe the whale songs made me think of the Wreck Of The Edmund Fitzgerald.