Jefff wrote:
I was saying that if the one thing was true (if that were his argument) then the other is true (he doesn't understand what he's arguing against), and I stand by that. It doesn't have to do with if he thinks abortion is wrong. It's about how he discusses it.
If you mean that saying it's about killing babies means that you don't know what it's about, because it in fact is about the right to kill babies (which is what you're saying, right?), then I get what you mean, and I agree.
Poor June wrote:
maybe bush is against abortion and i like that... but at the sametime... he's sendin' people over to iraq everyday for no apparent reason to die... so there we have it...
Ah crap, now I've got to say my piece.
Way I see it, killing anything is a bad idea. Plants, bugs, animals, people, time, you name it -- bad idea. But we've got to kill plants and animals (well maybe not animals -- that's another debate I don't want to get into) to stay alive -- that's just one of life's many contradictions. But ending a human life is a bazillion times worse than ending another kind of life. In my mind, human life is something you don't fuck with. Maybe it's okay if you're keeping yourself from getting killed -- I don't know, but I think so. Maybe it's okay if you're keeping someone else from getting killed -- I don't know, but I think so. Maybe it's okay if you're stopping an out-of-control dictator like Hitler (or, you could argue, Hussein) -- I don't know, but I think so. Some people think that it's okay to kill someone because they've killed someone else in the past. I don't think so. Some people think that it's okay to create a life, keep it frozen for years (who knows what that does to the subconcious, or the consciousness that Buddists believe continues through reincarnation that I can't remember what it's called), harvest cells from it in order to do research that might save other lives in the future, and toss it into the trash. I don't think so.
And some people think that it's okay, under the guise of women's rights, to kill a living human being that's completely dependent on them, that they helped bring into the world, purely for the sake of convenience. I'm not talking about pregnancies from rape here. I'm talking about how it's completely legal to use abortion as a means of birth control. So I'm saying it should be illegal? Yes. Why? Becauses it's wrong. But isn't that forcing my morality on other people? Yes, it is. But I also believe killing people after they're born is wrong and should be illegal, doing heroin is wrong and should be illegal, and stealing other people's stuff is wrong and should be illegal. The lawmakers tend to agree, because all these other things are in fact illegal. So it's long been established and agreed upon that we have to, to some extent, force our morality on everyone else. So what does "wrong" mean? I think it generally means that the act does harm either to yourself or to other people.
Well, in the case of abortion, the harm goes both ways. You're taking someone else's life, so obvoiusly you're harming someone else. You could argue that they're not aware enough to care, but couldn't you also make the same argument with someone in a catatonic state, or a heavily retarded person? But you're also hurting yourself, much of the time in ways you're not aware of. I know two women who have had abortions. One told me about how she got pregnant whan she was 19 and it was just assumed she'd get an abortion. I couldn't get a good read on how it affected her. She was kinda screwed up in general. The other one had an abortion for basically the same reason, and now, like 10 years later, it turns out that the procedure made her barren. All she wants now is a simple white-picket fence type life, and she can't have it, and she's pretty pissed (why she doesn't adopt, I have no idea).
So my first big criticism is that if abortion is gonna be legal, there needs to be all sorts of information about the possible side effects -- both physical and mental -- so women know what they're getting into. I dunno, maybe there is now, but there wasn't for these women, and I think they're the worse for it.
My second big criticism is the overwhelming lack of respect for any kind of life in this country. Death is filmed and sold for $19.95 (remember the "faces of death" videos?). It's disgusting the way we treat cows and chickens. We feed cows the ground up bits of other cows, and are shocked when it results in mad cow disease. But it's okay, because we don't see whats going on. Someone (I want to say Voltaire, but that's wrong) said "anyone who's ever seen an animal slaughtered would never eat meat again." Well, I haven't seen an animal slaughtered, but I have seen a deer killed and skinned, gutted, quartered, etc. I tell you, it's something. You get a lot more aware of the craziness of life and death.
This first woman I mentioned who had an abortion, she told me about it. She said after the doctor did his thing, he had her sit on a toilet, and every time she heard something fall, to flush the toilet and whatever you do, don't look down. I wonder how many women would still have an abortion if they knew that this is what they would have to go through? I feel pretty certain that almost no one would have an abortion if they were made to watch the concequences of it, if they had to watch the little fingers and toes swirl down into the septic system, the life that was inside them treated literally like a piece of shit. No, I'm not saying that women who have abortions should be forced to watch what happens to their baby -- Lord knows they have to go through enough shit as it is, but isn't there something fundamentally wrong with having a procedure done that you wouldn't be able to stomach seeing the results of?
Of course, if I was a woman in the same situation, I don't know what I'd do. There's no possible way for me to know -- I'm a guy. I have neither the privilege of carrying life, or the responsibility of what to do with it while it's in me. And in no way do I knock anyone who's had an abortion, I hope it goes without saying.
Well, there you have it. I've made half of you hate me, and the other half probably never liked me in the first place. But my viewpoint is based on a lot of thought, and even a little personal experience. So, I dunno, maybe it'll be helpful to someone else.
Man, my brain hurts from too much time on this message board. Well, go ahead and flame on.
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