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Any instrument or track. However, I will be looking for a complete phrase. For example: an 8 beat melody with 6 notes palindromic and 2 completing the phrase does *not* qualify.

Edit: removed the use of “measure”

grumpymike wrote: ↑

Fri May 27, 2022 12:55 pm

Any instrument or track. However, I will be looking for a complete phrase. For example: an 8 beat measure with 6 being palindromic and 2 completing the phrase does *not* qualify.

Oh boy, now that really muddies the water. Musical phrases can start on a downbeat, right? Or end on an upbeat?

This question was mooted by Mike's subsequent edit.

grumpymike wrote: ↑

Fri May 27, 2022 12:55 pm

However, I will be looking for a complete phrase.

I don’t think I’m going to care if it covers a whole bar or not, or if it lines up exactly to start on a particular beat, but regardless, Mike has expressed his preference and I guess you all probably will want to please as many judges as possible.

As it reads, I could do half of my palindrome over 7 measures, and the other half over one measure. " Rhythm can change."

I have a lot of phrases in my solo song that are not palindromes, but I have some clear 2 measure response licks that are palindromic.

I’ll also be pretty liberal in my judging, so don’t toss out whatever you were doing.

Just saying, I’ll judge harder if it’s obviously part of another phrase. Because then I don’t consider it a phrase in and of itself, which means it doesn’t follow the text of the challenge “palindromic musical phrase”. “Palindromic” is not “palindromey” or “palindromish” or “palindromesque”.

Now, maybe my example is a little too strict and you could make a phrase’s cadence fit the numbers exactly in such a way. I’m okay with that. What I’m most on the lookout for is trying to do less than the bare minimum.

It is subjective and so “you know it when you hear it”. Some opinions from the Wikipedia page:

John D. White defines a phrase as "the smallest musical unit that conveys a more or less complete musical thought. Phrases vary in length and are terminated at a point of full or partial repose, which is called a cadence."

Edward Cone analyses the "typical musical phrase" as consisting of an "initial downbeat, a period of motion, and a point of arrival marked by a cadential downbeat".

Charles Burkhart defines a phrase as "Any group of measures (including a group of one, or possibly even a fraction of one) that has some degree of structural completeness. What counts is the sense of completeness we hear in the pitches not the notation on the page. To be complete such a group must have an ending of some kind … . Phrases are delineated by the tonal functions of pitch. They are not created by slur or by legato performance ... . A phrase is not pitches only but also has a rhythmic dimension, and further, each phrase in a work contributes to that work's large rhythmic organization."

My suggestion to all contestants is simply to list your palindromes in the lyric thread or here in the round thread; judges may not see the posts but if they are looking for information they would be able to find it; whether they agree with you on whether or not your palindrome counts is up to the individual judge ofc.

OK but what if you have a 7 note phrase with the first 4 notes going up and then the middle note gets "reused" because the last 3 go back down, does that count for the palindrome? or does it have to be 8 notes i.e. repeat that middle note? I feel like that doesn't sound very good, i like the 7 note one better. (caveat: I probably just don't know what I'm doing.)

arby wrote: ↑

Sat May 28, 2022 2:03 pm

OK but what if you have a 7 note phrase with the first 4 notes going up and then the middle note gets "reused" because the last 3 go back down, does that count for the palindrome? or does it have to be 8 notes i.e. repeat that middle note? I feel like that doesn't sound very good, i like the 7 note one better. (caveat: I probably just don't know what I'm doing.)

Are you asking if there can be a pivot note? The title "Deified" uses a pivot letter, I can't imagine that your musical phrase couldn't. But then I'm not a judge so...

I can’t speak for the other judges. I will accept any phrase that contains at least 3 distinct tones and is at least 6 notes in total length. In other words, I think the minimum phrases follow the forms ABCCBA (6 notes, 3 tones), ABCDCBA (7 notes, 4 tones), ABACABA (7 notes, 3 tones).

Tried a lot of palindromes - none really working - and now time and other circumstances are against me. Looks like it's just not to be.

Good luck all - see you next year

Caravan Ray wrote: ↑

Sat May 28, 2022 9:39 pm

Tried a lot of palindromes - none really working - and now time and other circumstances are against me. Looks like it's just not to be.

Good luck all - see you next year

Hate to see you go. If you can possibly submit an ear fart I'd encourage that. It might be enough to get you through


Re: the challenge debate - I cannot envision myself strictly enforcing this one. As far as I'm concerned if someone wants to flaunt it I won't mind as long as their song is good. I certainly won't be measuring it in any way, but if anyone is able to implement it in a way that actually benefits the song then kudos to them.

Pigfarmer Jr wrote: ↑

Sat May 28, 2022 2:08 pm

arby wrote: ↑

Sat May 28, 2022 2:03 pm

OK but what if you have a 7 note phrase with the first 4 notes going up and then the middle note gets "reused" because the last 3 go back down, does that count for the palindrome? or does it have to be 8 notes i.e. repeat that middle note? I feel like that doesn't sound very good, i like the 7 note one better. (caveat: I probably just don't know what I'm doing.)

Are you asking if there can be a pivot note? The title "Deified" uses a pivot letter, I can't imagine that your musical phrase couldn't. But then I'm not a judge so...

Yes, that's what I was asking. But I ended up making a full 8 note phrase so never mind

grumpymike wrote: ↑

Sat May 28, 2022 5:31 pm

I can’t speak for the other judges. I will accept any phrase that contains at least 3 distinct tones and is at least 6 notes in total length. In other words, I think the minimum phrases follow the forms ABCCBA (6 notes, 3 tones), ABCDCBA (7 notes, 4 tones), ABACABA (7 notes, 3 tones).

Oh, interesting. Yeah ABCDCBA is what I was thinking of, instead of ABCDDCBA which for some reason I thought it HAD to be (and which is what I ended up doing). Did not even occur to me that the 3rd one was an option.

grumpymike wrote: ↑

Sat May 28, 2022 5:31 pm

I can’t speak for the other judges. I will accept any phrase that contains at least 3 distinct tones and is at least 6 notes in total length. In other words, I think the minimum phrases follow the forms ABCCBA (6 notes, 3 tones), ABCDCBA (7 notes, 4 tones), ABACABA (7 notes, 3 tones).

No ABBCBBA (7 notes, 3 tones)? I guess that's too similar to just being ABCBA.

Niveous wrote: ↑

Sun May 29, 2022 6:10 am

No ABBCBBA (7 notes, 3 tones)? I guess that's too similar to just being ABCBA.

I’d give that a strong “depends” how well it’s done. If it feels like ABCBA with an awkward addition that doesn’t really belong there, not a huge fan.

That said, I won’t be strongly indexing on the challenge as a penalty.

Welp, I'm in. I am happy with it. Hope everyone doesn't hate Q-Chord. I tried to mix it better so it's not so piercing. Worked pretty damn hard on this one.

Well, okay. I don't hate my entry, but I'm frustrated that I never really had that "aha" moment. But hey, it's early going yet. For ease of reference, here's the palindrome in my song:

My musical palindrome is limited to the solo in the bridge, but it's long (38 notes) and it has two other palindromes (12 notes each) nested inside it, so hopefully that counts for something. The notes are:

G F# E D E B
B E D E F# G
G F# E D E B D
D B E D E F# G
G F# E D E B
B E D E F# G

There's a bass line underneath this solo, played on the organ (because the bass guitar is doubling the solo). This bass line is also a palindrome, albeit a much more simplistic one: G E G E G E F# E G E G E G.

See y'all in battle. NUR EIN!

Welp, this is one of those rounds where as soon as I start listening to everyone else's songs, I immediately kick myself for not googling the most basic thing - how to fucken pronounce deified. I just assumed it was DAY-ified with a long "a" (like it is in Latin - Deus Ex Machina), but half of you guys are pronouncing it DEE-ified! wtf (one belated google later), apparently I am secretly British

Anyway I just listened - some great riffs! I might do some reviews later...

arby wrote: ↑

Mon May 30, 2022 1:08 am

Welp, this is one of those rounds where as soon as I start listening to everyone else's songs, I immediately kick myself for not googling the most basic thing - how to fucken pronounce deified. I just assumed it was DAY-ified with a long "a" (like it is in Latin - Deus Ex Machina), but half of you guys are pronouncing it DEE-ified! wtf (one belated google later), apparently I am secretly British

As a totally unbiased, possibly mildly British person, I think you NAILED it.

vowlvom wrote: ↑

Mon May 30, 2022 1:21 am

arby wrote: ↑

Mon May 30, 2022 1:08 am

Welp, this is one of those rounds where as soon as I start listening to everyone else's songs, I immediately kick myself for not googling the most basic thing - how to fucken pronounce deified. I just assumed it was DAY-ified with a long "a" (like it is in Latin - Deus Ex Machina), but half of you guys are pronouncing it DEE-ified! wtf (one belated google later), apparently I am secretly British

As a totally unbiased, possibly mildly British person, I think you NAILED it.

I have a lot of opinions and one of them is that Vom is right.

gizo wrote: ↑

Mon May 30, 2022 1:53 am

vowlvom wrote: ↑

Mon May 30, 2022 1:21 am

arby wrote: ↑

Mon May 30, 2022 1:08 am

Welp, this is one of those rounds where as soon as I start listening to everyone else's songs, I immediately kick myself for not googling the most basic thing - how to fucken pronounce deified. I just assumed it was DAY-ified with a long "a" (like it is in Latin - Deus Ex Machina), but half of you guys are pronouncing it DEE-ified! wtf (one belated google later), apparently I am secretly British

As a totally unbiased, possibly mildly British person, I think you NAILED it.

I have a lot of opinions and one of them is that Vom is right.

And here's me actually rhyming deified with "day".

Also for the benefit of the scrupulous - my palindrome is the twangy notes that play over the chorus: E D C# D C# A A C# D C# D E.

The song is supposed to be about Bowie too, although I will admit it's a pretty vague and rushed tribute.

arby wrote: ↑

Mon May 30, 2022 1:08 am

Welp, this is one of those rounds where as soon as I start listening to everyone else's songs, I immediately kick myself for not googling the most basic thing - how to fucken pronounce deified. I just assumed it was DAY-ified with a long "a" (like it is in Latin - Deus Ex Machina), but half of you guys are pronouncing it DEE-ified! wtf (one belated google later), apparently I am secretly British

Anyway I just listened - some great riffs! I might do some reviews later...

I liked “Friyay” so I wouldn’t worry about it. Though, why would you only pronounce half of the word like Latin? Shouldn’t it be more like day-i-fee-ade?