The Song Fight Bulletin Board

What Leaf said. A drummer should at the very least have the ability to play at a tempo and stay there, or "each part [having] a tempo that matches the feel and intensity" turns into each part having a tempo that is the wrong tempo for that section. If everyone else is playing the right tempo it sounds like shit.

i am mostly kidding about the click track stuff.

blue wrote:i am mostly kidding about the click track stuff.

Pussy.





(couldn't resist.)

hoo burn!

OK, so I'm off to try my hand at a paradiddle. Thanks to everyone for the great advice. Please keep it coming.

The last 2 posts made me laugh as hard as I have in a long time.

I'm glad Blue was mostly kidding about the click track thing because I was already being a pussy.

I am just glad to see that we aren't afraid to use the word "pussy" on the boards any more.

Spud wrote:I am just glad to see that we aren't afraid to use the word "pussy" on the boards any more.

Well, I find it annoying and I'm having you all arrested.

Oh crap! Pointless post on the Help And How To Board. Now jb'll have me arrested.

Spud wrote:I am just glad to see that we aren't afraid to use the word "pussy" on the boards any more.

I'm waiting for the day it'll be ok to call something 'gay.'

I sessioned our nice Tama in the store after close today, and damn it felt good. I've been focusing on single pedal double-kicks, and on the kick in general.

I've been wanting to get some more fill technique. Most of what I have is lifted from songs I know (the cliche Iron Maiden Run to the Hills tom roll, etc.)

The one thing that I generally notice about good drummers is the subtle and expressive use of the snare drum. The very slight syncopated left-hand rolls between the downbeats that just add to the groove without mushing up the mix. I think playing loudly comes into play here - greater dynamic range overall. If you're playing softly, 'soft' hits don't have much effect.

The Sober Irishman wrote:

Spud wrote:I am just glad to see that we aren't afraid to use the word "pussy" on the boards any more.

I'm waiting for the day it'll be ok to call something 'gay.'

You're gay.

(yes, JB, you may delete this post as I know it's off-topic. It was just too good a feedline to waste.)

Leaf wrote: To deny the power and benefit of a click is akin to saying guitarists shouldn't use a tuner....

It's not like that at all. They have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Look, I'm a music teacher. A good music teacher. Do my students use metronomes? Absolutely. I never said there was no value to practicing with a metronome. What I said is that playing to a click track while recording or performing is quite unnatural. It takes away any chance of developing "chemistry" (or whatever you want to call it) between musicians and ignors the fact that tempo is not absolute (in a majority of musical styles). Does that mean I never use a click track to record? Of course not. When I record stuf by myself and there are a lot of different instruments coming in at different times, I sometimes have to resort to a machine. But if I'm recording with a band and we're playing at the same time, the metronome sucks the life right out of the performance because we're no longer paying attention to each other. I could elaborate, but I'm late. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong. Bye!

Leaf wrote:

blue wrote:i am mostly kidding about the click track stuff.

Pussy.





(couldn't resist.)

Puck-slapping maple-sucker



(sorry - just heard that on The Simpsons - had to use it somewhere)

Hey, I got a question for you drummers: How can I tell when the drum riser is level?

When the drummer is drunk, does he fall out of his seat?

frankie big face wrote:

Leaf wrote: To deny the power and benefit of a click is akin to saying guitarists shouldn't use a tuner....

It's not like that at all. They have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Look, I'm a music teacher. A good music teacher. Do my students use metronomes? Absolutely. I never said there was no value to practicing with a metronome. What I said is that playing to a click track while recording or performing is quite unnatural. It takes away any chance of developing "chemistry" (or whatever you want to call it) between musicians and ignors the fact that tempo is not absolute (in a majority of musical styles). Does that mean I never use a click track to record? Of course not. When I record stuf by myself and there are a lot of different instruments coming in at different times, I sometimes have to resort to a machine. But if I'm recording with a band and we're playing at the same time, the metronome sucks the life right out of the performance because we're no longer paying attention to each other. I could elaborate, but I'm late. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong. Bye!

A different things here:

1) I don't care if you can't see the benefit of the analogy between the guitarist using a metronome to understand the relationship of a=440 and the further relationship of the other notes so that they can be universally in tune with other players versus a drummer using a metronome to understand the relationship of time so that they can be rhythmically aware of the pulse and the underlying subdivisions.

2) So you think you're a good teacher...what's your point? That I'm not? That you're more qualified to express your opinion on clicks? That was irrelevant. I get the impression that 90% of my students think I'm a good teacher too... so what. That doesn't impact the topic in anyway.

3) Why would I want to prove you wrong about relating to musicians in a group setting? I think you're totally right, and I never said otherwise. My points were directed at statements that suggested that using a click was not a good idea, so I listed the reasons I thought it was! Where did I suggest that groups of musicians must play to a click? Or that it was a perpetual requirement? As far as the "unnatural" comment goes, this is where I disagree with you, because I find it quite natural, as I had previously stated or implyed... and we happen to be different people. You are entitled to your opinion on that, but it's no rule. Just because you find it awkward doesn't mean I do. Now , if you meant that it's awkward in a group setting ONLY, I didn't get that impression the first time around, so I aplogize if you assumed the intent of my post was to "call you out" or "prove you wrong" or whatever negative connotation you wish to infer... but that wasn't the point at all. The point was to express, to new or beginning DRUMMERS that there are areas where I see tremendous value in the use of a click, and this should not be ignored. As I believe I am, at worst, a decent drummer, I think I'm qualified to express the benefits that I gained from the use of click, just as I have experienced the benefits of using a tuner.

The tuner/metronome analogy isn't a useful one because a guitar being in tune is something that most people want to occur. Sounding like a metronome is not something that most people want to occur.

Practicing with a metronome is good for someone who can't hear that they are changing tempos, that they are dragging or pushing the music. Practicing *without* a metronome is good for someone who can keep a steady beat; someone who needs to learn that minute shifts in where you place the beat over the music can affect the ebb and flow and feel of the music.

Speaking as someone who has played with shitty drummers before, people should strive for more than just being a metronome with girlfriend and a drinking problem.

If you think that I'm advocating anything that I've said as a rule, instead of just another opinion in the fray, please take it to PM.

Thanks

I don't actually think that... but I should obviously clarify where I'm coming from on the tuner thing, I can see how that is being misunderstood...

I know a few very talented guitar players who prefer to tune by ear, two of which can tune to standard tuning, perfectly, by ear. They don't actually have perfect pitch, but they are damn good at it! So, this is the perspective that I am coming from, in that there are guitarists who don't actually require a tuner, but it doesn't mean that a beginning guitarist would benefit from it, just as a beginning drummer would benefit from a metronome...although, obviously all musicians benefit from metronome study...

Hope that's clearer, but I also hope that it's clear that I do respect the fact that you or Frankie or anyone else may disagree, so my points are not to "prove" anyone wrong. Frankly, attacking my analogy is pretty much a red herring from the point, being that working with a metronome is valued, and clearly, we all agree on that anyway!! If people want to fight with me about semantics or choices of words to make a point, I too welcome the concept of keeping it in pm. I'm just not interesting in starting it off.

But how does one LEARN to play the drums regardless of metronome?

I'd say start by doing a 1-2-3-4 on the hihat

work in a hit on the snare drum on every 2 and 4

work in a kick drum hit on every 1 and 3. Now you're playing a drum beat.

[insert Leaf's paradiddles. Do as many combinations of speed and number of hits, as you can come up with. When you come across one that makes you screw up the hihat 1-2-3-4, you know you've got a good one to practice...]

Don't EVER play a crash cymbal alone. Always pair a crash/splash, etc. cymbal WITH either kick drum or snare, for now.

Play ALONG with your favorite songs, with headphones on or with your stereo cranked. This will help you learn changes and how to keep time.

ABOVE ALL: play with other musicians. When you walk down the street, do it to a tempo. Left foot on 1 and 3, right foot on 2 and 4.

When you grind your teeth, do it to a tempo. When you get a song in your head, play air drums to it...all of these things will help. Imagine you are driving the BUS of the convoy that is the band. Lead guitarist: sports car. Bass: SUV. Singer: motorcycle. etc.


As for guitar tuning....i prefer to tune by beer. The more you drink, the less it matters if you're in tune! If you keep drinking, you may never have to tune...let us pray that the audience is at least one beer ahead of you...

I had a teacher tell me once (for percussion, but I think it applies to anything) to sing the part, and perfect singing it before you ever touch the drum. His name was ...Memo Acevado? Something like that, but he's a kick ass percussionist from a south amercian country that I can not recall, ...maybe Chile, and he told me (and countless others, I'm sure) that where he came from, drums in the house were as common as a piano in a north american home...not sure how many homes have pianos, but I get his point! He said that children all wanted to learn hand drums, and they must learn to sing the groove and all it's parts before they could touch it.

This is a neat idea, because it commits the part to your memory so that all you have to worry about is coordination of the limbs, and then once they get coordinated, you can think about dynamics, blending, tone (like should the snare be snappy, soft, etc...) and then feel... so it's worth a try... BOOMchichiDAT!chichiBOOMchichiDAT! ... my triplet groove vocalization...


There are a million ways to approach it... might I suggest learning to put the snare on two and four (in a four four bar) and the kick on one and three... then learn how to play the following on the hihat overtop:

a) quarter notes
b) eighth notes
c) triplets
d) 16ths (one handed)
e) 16ths(alternating hands, with the right hand coming down for the snare on 2 and 4)
f) shuffled eighths
g) "swing" pattern (sounds kinda gay with a 2&4 backbeat snare to me, but hey, some people like it)

Then, at least, you could hold your own with most north american styles in a simple jam....

Once you got that down, learn how to make bass drum variations, simple generic ones like playing two 8th notes on beat three or something...

Once you get your kick patterns into something a little more interesting, throw in some simple snare variations, like the classic though dull "add a snare on the "e" of three" .

Once you got snare variations , learn to do some simple fills.

Now you can jam as a basic player. All of this, with 30 minutes a day, maybe five days a week, can be achieved in about 1-3 months.

**When I write stuff like "e" of 3, I'm referring to a counting method that divides counting the beat up into numbers for beats, and syllables for subdivisions, like :
1 e AND (+) a


So, a bar of syllable counted 16ths would read like:
1e+a 2e+a 3e+a 4e+a

Triplets would read:

1+a 2+a 3+a 4+a

...there are a ton counting methods far superior to this one, but this one is at least simple. My buddy Ryan tried to show me this SUPER complicated one that I just couldn't grasp at the time, but if anyone knows some cool or interesting (use your own adjectives here) counting methods, LAY IT OUT !! that'd be wicked...

Another tip: when you're beginning (or learning a new technique) COUNT OUT LOUD ... Say "1 2 3 4" or "1-e-and-a 2-e-and-a ..." or whatever, instead of just thinking it. This engages both sides of your brain, which helps build muscle memory, along with making it *really* obvious when you're laying a hit in the wrong place ("Hmm, I know that snare's supposed to fall on the 'e', so why am I saying '2' every time I hit it?") And maybe most importantly, it encourages regular breathing. You can't do the really whacked out drum stuff if you don't know how to breathe.

boltoph wrote:as for guitar tuning....i prefer to tune by beer.

Amen, brutha.

Leaf wrote:and they must learn to sing the groove and all it's parts before they could touch it.

Beat-boxing!! Really, it's the fundament of ALL music.

One more minor thing: don't step on a drumstick when you're barefoot. That hurts like hell.

haha! No doubt!

That reminds me! I stopped wearing glasses while playing years ago cause I used to catch the stick under my glasses and fling them off my face across the room... it doesn't happen anymore, but you reminded me of that!