The Song Fight Bulletin Board

Caravanray wrote:Anyway - I've always been of the opinion that a bass is a bass is a bass. As long as the thing is playable and stays in tune - well they're all pretty much the same.

Obviously I'm not the end-all, be-all of bass knowledge or I wouldn't have posted this thread. But I remember back when I went to buy that red sparkly Squier Telecaster (I wish I could find a pic of it...it was be-yoo-tiful) a guitar tech at the store I frequented gave me this bit of advice when I asked him what the major differences would be between a Squier and a Standard:

• If you can't hear the difference, then there is no difference.

This guy could have easily pressured me into spending a couple hundred more for the Standard (probably Mexican), but if you can't hear a difference, there really isn't one...for you. Maybe other people will be able to hear the difference, but who cares if it sounds good to you? My one big criteria when shopping is to make sure it stays in tune and generally, you can tell a lot about the quality of a guitar by that simple test IMHO.

P-bass! P-bass!

She's gotten her heart set on this.

kill_me_sarah wrote:

• If you can't hear the difference, then there is no difference.

lies!

blue wrote:

kill_me_sarah wrote:If you can't hear the difference, then there is no difference.

lies!

LIES!
Sure, you can swap the pickups, or question how good your ears are....but keep that bass for a few years and you'll not only hear the difference, but especially, you might feel the difference...

boltoph wrote:

blue wrote:

kill_me_sarah wrote:If you can't hear the difference, then there is no difference.

lies!

LIES!
Sure, you can swap the pickups, or question how good your ears are....but keep that bass for a few years and you'll not only hear the difference, but especially, you might feel the difference...

Sure, but is it better to buy something awesome and expensive and work to the day when you'll be able to tell that it's awesome, or is it better to buy something affordable now, and when you outgrow it, but the upgrage?

boltoph wrote:

blue wrote:

kill_me_sarah wrote:If you can't hear the difference, then there is no difference.

lies!

LIES!
Sure, you can swap the pickups, or question how good your ears are....but keep that bass for a few years and you'll not only hear the difference, but especially, you might feel the difference...

Let me expound on this point.

In order for a company to make money selling you their "inexpensive" product they are going to have to make obvious shortcuts. The main ones are the quality of 1) Parts and 2) Craftsmanship. So look at the parts variables that entails.

Electronics: The pickups and tone pots in cheap guitars are shit, period. They will need to be replaced adding cost to your "bargain". Why? Cheap pickups don't have as much output as good pickups do. That signal loss needs to be made up in gain somewhere else which introduces a whole host of other issues. They're also prone to all sorts of noise issues ranging from lights, radio signals to anything electronic. Ssssszzzzszzszszszssssszzzz. doesn't sound good on a recording. Scratchy tone pots only add to that noise, if they function in the first place.

Wood: Cheap wood warps...period. There is absolutely no getting around it. That cheap instrument you played and bought in the store that was in tune the day you bought it simply will never be in tune again at some point down the road. Whether that happens 5 or 10 years down the road isn't the point. When it happens during the best solo you ever played or the best track you almost got recorded is.

Craftsmanship: In 2 words, it matters. Today and tomorrow. I would rather have someone salivating over when they can get their hands on my vintage guitar than someone waiting to throw another log on the fire. Instruments are investments. Cheap investments are a waste of money and may as well be used as kindling. Make the argument all you want about how much use it will see, someone, somewhere, at some point in time will gladly give you every penny you paid for a good instrument and then some. If it saw little use, it will just be worth all that much more. If you want your stuff to end up in some garage sale selling for $10, be my guest.

Everything else: The tuning keys, the bridge, the frets are all very important components. What good are cheap ass tuning keys with inaccurate gear ratios if you can't find a dead center tuning? What good is a cheap ass bridge that has no sustain or constantly breaks strings because it's metal is too brittle and has sharp edges? What good are frets that end up making the guitar buzz in a year? These are critical components that can be replaced but by the time you do it you would have been better served buying the good instrument in the first place.

If you can't tell the difference between a cheap instrument and an expensive one now, give it time. I guarantee you will be able to with more experience. I'm not saying every instrument has to be a museum piece or even the most expensive you can find. I am saying that the more money you spend, the more likely it will fit your needs today, and tomorrow, and end up costing you less in the long run. And then there's that whole return on you investment thing.

Unlike computers and software. There you are on you own brother.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and basses. You can skimp on those. It's just low notes anyway.

EDIT AGAIN: Unless you WANT to be a bass player, and then all the other rules apply. If you're just recording with it just make sure it stays in tune, plays well enough, and sounds good enough and you'll be fine.

Dan-O from Five-O wrote: If you can't tell the difference between a cheap instrument and an expensive one now, give it time. I guarantee you will be able to with more experience. I'm not saying every instrument has to be a museum piece or even the most expensive you can find. I am saying that the more money you spend, the more likely it will fit your needs today, and tomorrow, and end up costing you less in the long run. And then there's that whole return on you investment thing.

I'm 25 years old. I started playing when I was 15 or 16. When will this magical knowledge come?

Look, I appreciate that more expensive guitars are, typically better quality and better investments. But some can justify spending $200 now and maybe not be able to justify $800 - $1000 anytime in the forseeable future. It's just a lot easier to save that amount. I think all of your arguments for good guitars are valid, but I disagree w/ your feelings about the off brands. I think of them like cars. Sure, I'd rather have a Hummer than say, a '89 Corolla Station Wagon. But they'll both get me from point A to point B. And should I go without any car until I can afford the Hummer, or should I buy would I can afford and that will get the job done?

kill_me_sarah wrote:I'm 25 years old. I started playing when I was 15 or 16. When will this magical knowledge come?

You also skipped playing for about 10 years if I recall correctly so, not in your first year.

kill_me_sarah wrote:Look, I appreciate that more expensive guitars are, typically better quality and better investments. But some can justify spending $200 now and maybe not be able to justify $800 - $1000 anytime in the forseeable future. It's just a lot easier to save that amount. I think all of your arguments for good guitars are valid, but I disagree w/ your feelings about the off brands. I think of them like cars. Sure, I'd rather have a Hummer than say, a '89 Corolla Station Wagon. But they'll both get me from point A to point B. And should I go without any car until I can afford the Hummer, or should I buy would I can afford and that will get the job done?

As I said, or more to the point should have said, choose your investments wisely. If it's something you are considering having around for a lifetime, take the plunge. If it's just a tool to get you from point A to point B, I see a lot of "89 Corolla Station Wagons" in your future, but that's OK too. If that's how you choose to spend your money.

The world has changed into this land of instant gratiification. I guess I'm missing out on that.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/ ... sku=508160

This thing is great.

I got it for Christmas last year and I love it. It's super light and the tone is awesome.

I have no complaints about it.

Also, it's really sexy.

Damien Verrett (Jonas) wrote:http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/ ... sku=508160

This thing is great.

BZL also recommended that one. I do dig it, very Paul McCartney. I'll have to see what the wife thinks.

shoddy instruments are painful to play, physically. if you have a bad axe, with action that's too high, it will hurt, plus your tone will suffer. so you lower the action. then it buzzes. good instruments are able to balance so that they are comfortable to play and still have good tone and sustain.

to a certain extent, you absolutely get what you pay for. if it's painful and sounds bad, your student will NOT persevere. even if you're the student. or your wife.

buy a cheap fender squire bass. Just make sure it'll stay in tune and isn't TOO hard to play. If she picks up on it..then you'll have been saving up for something better and THEN make THAT purchase.

Everybody has already said it...staying in tune and easy to play are your too main focuses when considering a bass for LEARNING.

On another note..I just recently bought a new (used) bass myself. Kind of weird that this topic sprung like this as I just bought this thing a week ago. I got a Washburn XB102. It's a nice step up from what I had and I bought it used for 100 bucs and it came with a strap and a practice amp. (Bought it from a guy at work) I turned around sold MY OLD bass for $25 and threw in that amp for another $10. (To another guy at work) bringing the cost of my bass down to a total of $65.

Thing plays well, stays in tune and sounds real good even with it's dead strings. (Getting new ones on Friday) Somebody raised the pickups to be right on the strings and I had to lower them..but other than that..it's a real steal.

and didn't you used to have a squire bass hoblit?

$25. that seems about right.

kill_me_sarah wrote:Maybe other people will be able to hear the difference, but who cares if it sounds good to you?

Who cares? The people who will be listening to your music care, that's who. If you don't care at ALL about their opinion, then just make a bass out of a rope, a broomstick and a washtub.

erik wrote:make a bass out of a rope, a broomstick and a washtub.

I've played a washtub bass -- audience participation at some folk festival. The guy who was actually performing was amazed that I aimed for real notes. If you go with a washtub bass, though, you'll want to upgrade the broomstick...

Dan-O from Five-O wrote:

boltoph wrote:

blue wrote: lies!

LIES!
Sure, you can swap the pickups, or question how good your ears are....but keep that bass for a few years and you'll not only hear the difference, but especially, you might feel the difference...

Let me expound on this point.

In order for a company to make money selling you their "inexpensive" product they are going to have to make obvious shortcuts. The main ones are the quality of 1) Parts and 2) Craftsmanship. So look at the parts variables that entails.

Electronics: The pickups and tone pots in cheap guitars are shit, period. They will need to be replaced adding cost to your "bargain". Why? Cheap pickups don't have as much output as good pickups do. That signal loss needs to be made up in gain somewhere else which introduces a whole host of other issues. They're also prone to all sorts of noise issues ranging from lights, radio signals to anything electronic. Ssssszzzzszzszszszssssszzzz. doesn't sound good on a recording. Scratchy tone pots only add to that noise, if they function in the first place.

Wood: Cheap wood warps...period. There is absolutely no getting around it. That cheap instrument you played and bought in the store that was in tune the day you bought it simply will never be in tune again at some point down the road. Whether that happens 5 or 10 years down the road isn't the point. When it happens during the best solo you ever played or the best track you almost got recorded is.

Craftsmanship: In 2 words, it matters. Today and tomorrow. I would rather have someone salivating over when they can get their hands on my vintage guitar than someone waiting to throw another log on the fire. Instruments are investments. Cheap investments are a waste of money and may as well be used as kindling. Make the argument all you want about how much use it will see, someone, somewhere, at some point in time will gladly give you every penny you paid for a good instrument and then some. If it saw little use, it will just be worth all that much more. If you want your stuff to end up in some garage sale selling for $10, be my guest.

Everything else: The tuning keys, the bridge, the frets are all very important components. What good are cheap ass tuning keys with inaccurate gear ratios if you can't find a dead center tuning? What good is a cheap ass bridge that has no sustain or constantly breaks strings because it's metal is too brittle and has sharp edges? What good are frets that end up making the guitar buzz in a year? These are critical components that can be replaced but by the time you do it you would have been better served buying the good instrument in the first place.

If you can't tell the difference between a cheap instrument and an expensive one now, give it time. I guarantee you will be able to with more experience. I'm not saying every instrument has to be a museum piece or even the most expensive you can find. I am saying that the more money you spend, the more likely it will fit your needs today, and tomorrow, and end up costing you less in the long run. And then there's that whole return on you investment thing.

Unlike computers and software. There you are on you own brother.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and basses. You can skimp on those. It's just low notes anyway.

EDIT AGAIN: Unless you WANT to be a bass player, and then all the other rules apply. If you're just recording with it just make sure it stays in tune, plays well enough, and sounds good enough and you'll be fine.

Damn you Dan-o.

I read your whole post - agreed with you - and decided I should go and buy a Fender P-Bass

Then read your edits - which pretty much went back to confirming what I said in the first place

So - in summing up - a Yamaha bass, that costs 1/3 of what a Fender costs but sounds and feels pretty good to me as far as I can tell, should do the trick - and I can spend the money I save on a nice, tight pair of leather trousers?

...

jack wrote:and didn't you used to have a squire bass hoblit?

$25. that seems about right.

Ha ha, way to call me out. You nailed it exactly.

Anybody who likes any of my bass sound on any of my songs in the last couple'a years has liked a Fender Squire Bass. Even <a href="http://chris.hoblit.net/sound/Hoblit-Lo ... nBlack.mp3" target="resource window">Look Good In Black</a> was recorded with a Fender Squire Bass.

It was easy to play and I maybe tuned the thing twice last year...and only after the cats knocked it over.

Caravanray wrote:and I can spend the money I save on a nice, tight pair of leather trousers?

OK, I thought it was a good cheap bass you're recommending, and now it appears you really just want to know how to save some dough at the end of the month for your secret night life.

jb wrote:shoddy instruments are painful to play, physically. if you have a bad axe, with action that's too high, it will hurt, plus your tone will suffer. so you lower the action. then it buzzes. good instruments are able to balance so that they are comfortable to play and still have good tone and sustain.

to a certain extent, you absolutely get what you pay for. if it's painful and sounds bad, your student will NOT persevere. even if you're the student. or your wife.

Okay, I agree totally with this, but maybe we have different "cheap" instruments in mind. When I think cheap, I'm thinking a Squier instead of a Mexican or American Fender. I'm not talking about whatever off, off-brand that Wal-Mart sells. I mean, I've played some really terrible guitars. But in my opinion, while a Squier may not be near the quality of an American Fender, it's also not painful to play in the least, the action on it isn't bad at all and, as I said, it stays in tune pretty well. One string may get kicked off by a quarter step if I really lay into the tremolo bar, but other than that it's solid.

eric wrote:make a bass out of a rope, a broomstick and a washtub.

I had some friends who were brothers who decided to make a washtub bass and play some good old fashioned dixie jugband music. It sounded awesome.

kill_me_sarah wrote:I had some friends who were brothers who decided to make a washtub bass and play some good old fashioned dixie jugband music. It sounded awesome.

The drum in front of me (playing guitar in the middle) was soon after this photo converted to a bass. But sadly the session photographer didn't capture that version of the Upper Meadow Farm Band.