The Song Fight Bulletin Board

The only thing I really dislike is the mediocre.

WeaselSlayer wrote:I hate to be a stickler, but isn't all rock that's available in a marketable form commercial?

i interpreted commercial rock as bands like nickelback and 3 doors down whose songs are clearly artistically void, but completely marketable. stuff that's made and controlled by profits.

i thought it was funny earlier when you called nirvana commercial rock. i bet cobain would take offense to that.

fodroy wrote: i bet cobain would take offense to that.

Then he'd get a big stomach ache and shoot himself in the mouth. [/inappropriate and wrong comment]

WeaselSlayer wrote:isn't all rock that's available in a marketable form commercial?

No. At least that's not the intended definition of this survey. Sure, everyone who puts out an album is trying to make money, nothing wrong with that. But there's a difference between Pavement getting played on public or college radio and then a fan going out and buying an album, and between someone buying the new Nickelback album because some big whig at Universal Music Group, the largest major label in the industry with a 23% market share decided that it sounded "marketable". In other words, "commercial rock" is music that initially gets played because someone gets paid to play it, not because someone called in to request it or because some music saavy DJ discovered it.

WeaselSlayer wrote:And the idea of disliking a genre seems even stupider.

This I agree with. In fact, I'm not sure that "commercial rock" really even qualifies as a "genre", nor does Top 40 necessarily.

fodroy wrote:What you said.

Beat me to it And wow, there's some definite Nickelback hatin' going on here, eh? BTW, has anyone noticed that 3 Doors Down sounds like a recycled version of Candlebox?

niveous wrote:What you said.

I was tempted to say the same thing about Cobain. Wasn't the fact that he had turned into commercial rock one of the reasons he killed himself, along with being high on coke and married to Courtney Hole?

making fun of kurt cobain is always fun. if you become that famous, the jokes are gonna come.

i've actually made an entire song called "i'm kurt cobain" that makes fun of him. and one of my songs has the line "all nirvana wannabes should get shot in the head."

yup. dave grohl turned out to be the most talented member of nirvana.

fodroy wrote:yup. dave grohl turned out to be the most talented member of nirvana.

Nonsense! What about that time Novoselic threw his bass into the air and caught it using only his nose? Now THAT's talent.

Also: I really like Foo Fighters quite a bit.

fodroy wrote: yup. dave grohl turned out to be the most talented member of nirvana.

It's funny, I feel the same way, but I also like Nirvana way more than the Foo. For some reason I've never been enthralled by any Foo Fighters stuff (aside from their videos) but I do think Dave Grohl is great and clearly the best musician out of Nirvana.

kill_me_sarah wrote:someone buying the new Nickelback album because some big whig at Universal Music Group, the largest major label in the industry with a 23% market share decided that it sounded "marketable"

To be fair, this is NOT what happens. Nor is it that people call in to request a song because a DJ discovered it.

Things get popular either a) because they are good and many people like them or b) because some influential people like them and others like to appear to like what other people like.

It doesn't follow that all good things are popular, nor that everything influential people like becomes popular.

But in either case, people buy albums because they *want* those albums, for whatever reason. In a discussion like this, it's more intelligent (imo) to quibble with the mechanisms the market uses to get people to want things.

jb wrote:

kill_me_sarah wrote:someone buying the new Nickelback album because some big whig at Universal Music Group, the largest major label in the industry with a 23% market share decided that it sounded "marketable"

To be fair, this is NOT what happens. Nor is it that people call in to request a song because a DJ discovered it.

Well, I'm not sure which part you don't agree with. Obviously there are a couple steps in between, but people (in general - though probably not much of SF! community) buy what gets played a lot on the radio. And most mainstream music on the radio gets played a lot because major labels pay them to, and major labels pay them to because big whigs think the band sounds marketable. That's how bands like N*Sync and Backstreet Boys come to exist, although with them it's even more staged. Someone has a preconceived notion of what will sell well, then they go out and MAKE that group, and then they pay people to plaster their posters all over and put their videos and singles in heavy rotation.

I think a lot of people here would like the book "Torture the Artist" by Joey Goebel. It's fiction, but it's a fascinating read and probably hits the nail on the head pretty closely as far as how stuff makes it into the mainstream.

I just have a question ... what really is wrong with commercial rock and top 40? I honestly don't love the genres, but aside from being unoriginal, the bands really aren't that bad. I think it's dumb to dislike a genre just because the bands sold out.

jolly roger wrote:I just have a question ... what really is wrong with commercial rock and top 40? I honestly don't love the genres, but aside from being unoriginal, the bands really aren't that bad. I think it's dumb to dislike a genre just because the bands sold out.

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with it. It's kind of like saying, "what's wrong with just eating fast food?" There's nothing really wrong with it per se. There's just so much more out there, why waste your time on the dredge?

kill_me_sarah wrote:"what's wrong with just eating fast food?" There's nothing really wrong with it per se.

Well, it's really bad for your health - isn't that enough?
-bill

I take offense to the notion of "selling out"

If you want to be technical I'm a sell out because one of the songs I made was used as background music in a local commercial and I got paid 300 bucks for it.

For that matter, every single one of you who works for a living is a sell out. You only work to make money. If you didn't get paid you wouldn't work.

With that said, Country sucks my left nut. Thank you.

None of selections provided represent the worst music on earth. I have a neighbor who plays some type of middle eastern music all of the time that is far, far worse than any of the genres that you listed.

Steve

Racist.

Rone Rivendale wrote:I take offense to the notion of "selling out"

If you want to be technical I'm a sell out because one of the songs I made was used as background music in a local commercial and I got paid 300 bucks for it.

For that matter, every single one of you who works for a living is a sell out. You only work to make money. If you didn't get paid you wouldn't work.

With that said, Country sucks my left nut. Thank you.

There is a huge difference between writing music that is tailored to hit the charts vs. writing music that is just really good and couldn't miss the charts if it tried.

Denyer wrote:Racist.

I don't dislike the people. They're great.

But the music sucks. That's got nothing to do with race.

Steve

kill_me_sarah wrote:I think a lot of people here would like the book "Torture the Artist" by Joey Goebel. It's fiction, but it's a fascinating read and probably hits the nail on the head pretty closely as far as how stuff makes it into the mainstream.

Jen Trynin's "Everything I'm Cracked Up to Be" is also a good read. It is an honest, humorous inside look at the music business (business being the key word). She writes about her experiences as subject of a major label bidding war only to realize that timing is everything.

If you are a great musician/songwriter, it is impossible to 'make it' without the right people pulling the right switches at the right time. How much great music has been overlooked because the pieces of the puzzle didn't fall into place perfectly? Artists can earn critical acclaim and have a strong but small following, but if the 'machine' isn't working around them, they won't sell millions of records (which, of course, is probably not their main goal anyway).

At the same time, with strong marketing, etc, any bozo can get played over and over and over on the radio, thus convincing the general listener that this is 'good music,' that they should go buy it, that if they don't, they are not hip, etc. See: Nickelback.

Of course, labels such as rock, pop, country, etc. are more than anything ways for the business to market their product. Many of us buy into it, simplifying the broad world of music because it's easier that way. Also, especially for young people, it is a way to define themselves -- a way to control their self-image. Oh, I'm into sk8r-punk rock.... Doing so allows the market to control our likes and dislikes.

For a long time, I thought I hated hip-hop because all I heard was what was on heavy rotation. Much of it I still don't like, but I have found a few groups that I respect and enjoy. And I can completely understand why some people despise "country" music, given that pop-country is what the business offers us.

sdurand wrote:

Denyer wrote:Racist.

I don't dislike the people. They're great.

But the music sucks. That's got nothing to do with race.

Steve

Whereas I like The Chills, Split Enz and Straitjacket Fits - but generally as a race I think New Zealanders suck.

Weird huh.

Wait, can we back up to the part where if if you make money you've sold out? Or should I just ignore it since the very notion makes my head throb with a nonsense-tumor.

To clarify: When I listed 'Commercial Rock', I meant stuff like Matchbox 20, Dave Matthews Band, Nickelback, etc.... the kind of generic, bland, soul-less pap that you're likely to hear at any given time on a 'corporate rock' radio station.