WebWide Boycott

[Lyricburglar]

hey - maybe he's got a point. After all, the introduction of democracy has done wonderful things for Iraq

[j$]

DNFTT.

DNFTT.
DNFTT.



Nevada.

[Oust The Mods]

Why don't you rise up to your responsibilities?

It is your community.

So you should pay the bill.

And you should do the work of administering it.

Why be a shirker?

Why be a freeloader?

[Niveous]

Good lord, did he actually bring up the banning of LEF??? This is insanity. OTM, please go away. There is a whole community of people here who are perfectly happy with the status quo. We didn't ask for an advocate. Nor do we need one.

[Oust The Mods]

Seriously, if you don't like the way things work, you're free to go somewhere else. What could be more democratic than that?

Holy crap, that's the most American thing I've ever heard from a Canadian.

Seriously though, I encounter no appreciable limits to my freedom here at SF. And I have doubts about the value of true democracy in a place like this. Call me a radical if you will, but I think the will of the people does not necessarily result in the wisest course of action.

If you don't like democracy you only need to click on any of the hundreds of thousands of forums out there and find NO Democracy.

You are just as free as I am to leave.

So why don't you leave the Internet?

Since you obviously have a problem.

And the problem is not going to go away.

And the problem is going to escalate.

You can never develop this community without democracy.

It hasn't developed since Spud and JB took over.

Yes, it has been maintained.

But it has not explored new avenues because it refuses to raise up new leadership.

You stay on this course simply because everyone else out there is doing it.

[Oust The Mods]

Good lord, did he actually bring up the banning of LEF??? This is insanity. OTM, please go away. There is a whole community of people here who are perfectly happy with the status quo. We didn't ask for an advocate. Nor do we need one.

I am an advocate for myself.

I am a User just like you.

I intend to use the communities with my best interest in mind.

Democracy can best suit myself.

I do this for me.

And for other people.

Not necessarily you.

No, you are fit for the boycotting.

[jimtyrrell]

I don't think I have a problem. In fact, I think that's pretty much the gist (jist?) of what I was saying.

But the fact of the matter is, (and this gets back to what Deshead said so much more simply), you are not denied democracy if you widen your scope of vision. The internet is a grand democracy waiting for you to cast your Non-SF vote by creating a utopian alternative. It's not like the web is space-limited or anything. Why modify when you can create? There's room for your idea too, and it'll succeed or fail on its own merits.

[Spud]

Here is my view on this.

I do not believe in growth for the sake of growth.
I do not believe in change for the sake of change.
I do not believe in fixing something that is not broken.

On the other hand, since JB and I took over Song Fight! and these forums, we have:

1. regular updates, in a relatively timely fashion.
2. three titles (currently) rather than one - this is adjusted on as as-needed basis.
3. an archive which can be sorted according to titles, artists, or dates.
4. individual web pages for individual songs.
5. individual web pages for individual artists.
6. cover art for every fight.
7. an archive of community-submitted art, regardless of whether it was used for the fight or not.
8. an archive listing of community-sponsored side fights.
9. an additional level of heirarchy in our bulliten board, improving usability.
10. more users than ever.
11. more songs than ever.
12. periodic regional live events sponsored by individuals.
13. annual live events promoted by Song Fight.
14. an actual community-news section on the front page.
15. historical data on the front page.
16. a songfight webring.
17. a stream all function for fights and artist pages
18. an faq.
19. removal of the 64bps mono requirement.
20. the availability of songhole.org for songfight-related hosting.

There will be more. So where is the lack of development? What are you looking for that we are not providing? There is a suggestion forum. Please feel free to utilize it.

[Mostess]

So that that more new members can come in and continuously change roles.

With each new election of mods and administrators new programs can be introduced.

And the site can be transferred from one generation of participants to the next.

If the site depends upon JB and Spud, what will you do when they are gone?

When narbotic, the guy who started SongFight!, stopped updating regularly, folks on the dumbrella boards grumbled about starting a parallel fight. Spud just went ahead and did it: he called it MeanWhile! He did it probably because he's a good webmaster and has some skills and time and resources. And he loves SongFight! And why the heck not? But it wasn't his idea. The idea was raised, seconded, and applauded on the discussion boards. Some people participated in MeanWhile!, some people didn't. To my knowledge, no one complained.

After a few MeanWhile! fights, and more stagnation at the original site, someone asked narbotic if he'd mind if MeanWhile! was renamed SongFight! and he obviously assented. Spud and JB took care to preserve the look and feel of the original site and to mention narbotic on the front page. Someone registered songfight.org and songfight.net. No one complained about that. That was what, four years ago? The original URL (songfight.com) is gone. Presumably, narbotic has moved on to other things. As have many frequent and infrequent Fighters.

If (heaven forbid) something happened to both current moderators and no one had any access to the moderation tools or passwords or code or whatnot, I'm sure something equally organic and participant-driven would happen. It already kind of is happening: there are all sorts of sidefights and variations on the SongFight! model, some of which get prominant mention on the front page of SongFight! There has been plenty of growth and change in the SongFight! community since I started submitting in 2002, and most of it started as individual or small-group projects that met with a large enough approval by the general community that they became standard practice. See the Sidefights forum for a list of examples. This because we are all adults and are perfectly happy to take responsibility for our ideas and the ideas of others that we really like.

I'd be curious to see your draft proposal for a SongFight! constitution. I'm assuming you're writing one. Or at least have thought about it. I'd like to hear your nominations for next moderator. What is a moderator's term duration? Term limits? How are voters registered? How are elections monitored for fairness? What limitations of moderator power would you propose? Should moderators be prevented from banning IP addresses? Should participants who exhibit bad faith face any sort of punishment? Can you name a single existing democratic institution in which all citizens are allowed to vote no matter what they do or how they behave? In which no one can be turned away from full and anonymous participation?

Your call for more democracy is intriguing, though I suspect it's just a politically happy face for the bitterness you feel for being rejected from the community. But if you actually are willing to be a good faith participant and make some concrete proposals for growth and change, they will probably be adopted to the extent that a) the people who visit here want to try them and b) you're willing to put some work into the process of realizing your ideas.

[Oust The Mods]

No administrator has the right to ownership.

I am challenging your percieved authority over a community.

And you as an administrator, through the use of deletes, locks and bans have fabricated a concensus.

You made it appear as if NOONE believes the things I am talking about.

And this was a mistake.

Because there are people.

They are afraid to come forward openly because of the threat that you pose.

You would have some credibility if people were not being rewarded for their allegiance to you.

You force them to depend upon you and JB.

That is unethical behavior.

Our use of deletes, locks, and bans is extremely minimal. On the songfight board you will find many, many, many criticisms and dissenting opinions.

I am not forcing anyone to do anything. Even your thread on the board still exists to this point.

Why are you afraid to step down?

Don't you believe in the people you have?

Is everyone else so dispensible?

And you, indispensible?

[deshead]

Yay Spud!

And don't forget:
21. Appeared on TV to promote the site.

Democracy can best suit myself.

Yeah, uh, I'm pretty sure that attitude is the antithesis of democracy.

[john m]

http://www.cafepress.com/songfight

Who's making money off that? I hope it's going to server costs and whatnot. I remember there being one such site, with the proceeds going to someone in this community I am not pleased with for a variety of reasons, and that upset me.

[Oust The Mods]

the will of the people does not necessarily result in the wisest course of action.

This is very true.

For example: I am right about this and everybody else is wrong!

[Niveous]

I agree with Jim. C'mon OTM. Let's see your utopian alternative to the current forum structure based on your myopic vision on how democracy would work in a community such as ours. Instead of grandstanding, as you have, turn theory in practice. Create your ideal forum which will rival songfight and dumbrella simply on the fact that it works on your democratic principles. Create it and don't run it. Leave it to the people. Let's see if your hypothesis has any merit or will the whole thing fall into anarchy.

I say that we ignore OTM. Let him sit back and create his moderator-less democracy on his own webspace. Show us something.

[jb]

I can't believe you people are taking this guy seriously. *snort*

[deshead]

Some of us have more important tasks we're avoiding.

[Oust The Mods]

There is no call for me to step down. If we took a vote, I would be elected. If we took a vote, you would be banned. Good thing for you, it isn't a democracy.

But you have fabricated the consensus.

The members are rewarded for bolstering you.

So they have no real credibility.

They know that you are holding power over them.

So you and yours have no credible argument.

They only one who has spoken out is also the only one who has no Ip number.

People are afraid.

And if there were a vote today it would be you and yours who would do the counting.

What are you afraid of?

They think of web communities as Survivor!

Why don't you train people to take your place?

Why are you making the whole community dependent upon you?

Like no one else can do these things?

Does it require some super human ability to make this place function?

[john m]

I am not in charge of Songfight, but I would like to make some observations:

Songfight may be intended for the public, but it has never made pretense of being publically-run. I understand that this is your issue, no matter how unintelligent it is/you are, but by submitting to the site, you and all participants agree to the private ownership of the site. If you do not like it, leave. Make your own site. Your argument is ridiculous and unfounded.

I understand that you are trolling and stupid and are gleeful at the prospect of new posts to turn into shitty line-by-line faux-poetic responses, but in general I am upset by people who misunderstand regulations and liberties. This is no different from, say, an American football player, kicked off the team for saying something improper, crying foul and invoking freedom of speech as per the Bill of Rights. In that situation, said player is ignorant because that only protects citizens' freedom of speech from retribution from the government; the team, being a privately-run establishment, can freely set and enforce its own rules. Similarly, Songfight may be open to the general public, but it at no point makes any pretense of allowing control by its participants. Whether actively or not, whether silently or vocally, you agreed to these rules. If you have come to disagree with these rules, you are strongly encouraged to create your own site of your own design. (Though, ironically, that design will then be submit to a democracy, and could then change completely from what you intended. Still so sure of what you want?)

For the sake of your future trollings, please ensure you have a grasp of proper English spelling and grammar. The most laughable part of your entire argument is that you interlace your points with gems like noone (sic).

Finally, to bring some levity to the situation:

Fine. I agree to a democracy.

I vote for Spud and JB to run the site.

[Niveous]

I can't believe you people are taking this guy seriously. *snort*

I'm not but in seeing Spud's post where he listed all the good that you & he have done for this forum; I felt the need to say something. You two have done an incredible job with Songfight and deserve to be showered with praise for your work and not have to deal with this kind of nonsense. If he thinks he can create something better then he should go and try (and then say hello to the guy who started the Sharing Machine on his way down).

[Mostess]

I can't believe you people are taking this guy seriously. *snort*

He's obviously a troll. But the idea is interesting and worthy of discussion. And anyway, actual discourse (hell, just a complete paragraph) is probably a Nevada to him.

[Oust The Mods]

It's always the Mudsuckers who come running up to protect and defend the status quo.

You give the false appearance that everything is satisfactory.

Yet it's not.

You couldn't get me involved.

Why?

Why would I, an English Speaking person, raised up and taught in the Tradition of Democracy, abandon what I know to be right:

The trains will run on time where there is democracy.

This is just another one of the thousands sites where the trains don't run on time.

You are still doing the same things you were doing 3 years ago based on the fact that it works.

As if nothing else will work!

JB and Spud were against this kind of talk before because people listen and it makes sense and they want to stay where they are.

Narbotic left.

Wy don't they doi the same?

Songfight didn't fail.

And it won't faiil if they leave.

You implying that it would.

Why? What's the matter with the rest of you?

Are you crippled?

[john m]

You misspelled...

Nevermind.