The Song Fight Bulletin Board

Eric, I don't see why that would be an issue. Rap in itself is the art of cleverly arranged samples of previously recorded songs and beats to make something new, right?

impulse wrote: That brings up a good point. I do not play any instruments, so for the songs I create I usually download a hip-hop beat off the Internet (legally) to match the lyrics and tune I write.

By the way, none of these beats have been used on other peoples' songs. Most people just use them for background music in TV shows, movies, etc... or customize the beat and add to it to make their song. So, the point is, my songs as a whole are totally original.

Is what I do that not allowed for Songfight?

So I think BLT and I are getting the opposite impressions from your post. Please clarify. How it sounds to me is: You take music that is already written and recorded by someone else and add your rapping over the top without modifying the music in any way.

I didn't notice any mention of "clever arranging of previously recorded songs to make something new". If you are doing that, that's wonderful and there's no problem.

But if you're really just downloading a 3-minute instrumental track and recording a rap over it, your songs are certainly not wholly original, and moreover you are using entirely unmodified material generated before the fight's announcement, which is against the Songfight! rules.

If that's the case, and you don't want to make your own instrumental tracks, a much better idea is to collaborate with other songfighters, as I'm sure many of us would be happy to make some beats for you.

The thing is that the beats I use don't really have much of a tune. They are just plain boring background music. It is only when I add lyrics and sing the lyrics to my own tune that it becomes a song.

- Eric

So it's OK to use someone else's music and pass it off as your own as long as it's not actually tuneful?

That is just the way Rap/Hip-Hop music works. Many rappers don't make their own beats. They get them from places like http://beats2rap2.com and http://www.soundclick.com/genres/Charts ... bgenre=192 . It still takes a lot of skill to actually turn a beat like that into a real song.

- Eric

Could we please not turn this thread into a debate on the merits of the production of rap combined with a semantic debate about what "is" a "song"? Thanks!

I guess I would say that, since you personally did not write/record the music before the next title was announced, you would be able to sample from this song just as legitimately as you would from any pre-existing recording that you did not create of music you did not write. For our purposes, "legitimacy" in this discussion simply has to do with the rules of SongFight! I don't really see a lot of difference between MC Frontalot rapping over samples from the Muppets and you rapping over samples of Otalgia. So there are definitely many precedents in the archive that seem to establish that it's OK for you to do what you're doing and what you presumably want to do with the Otalgia track. Plus in this case you have the explicit permission of the people who made the music you want to use. So, it seems like all systems are "go" to me.

Even if you just took the song as is, and rapped over it, that to me would still be OK, though much less interesting than if you were to chop it up and rearrange it in some way.

Eric, this is just my opinion, but I think you should model one of your songs after Run DMC. You already have an old school style that you are flavoring with a new nerdcore genre. I would seriously listen to the Aerosmith/Run DMC collaboration and try something like that using lunkheads song.
They rap with a drum machine, then break into the Aerosmith loops for the chorus.
I'm trying to get some vox in on Lunks song, and I think a few others are too, so once the chorus vox are done, you can use the chorus. Maybe even loop some other parts of Lunks song too. Could be a new thing for you.

I agree, doing the song "Walk This Way" style would be good, but that song had a hip-hop beat over the Aerosmith guitar part so that made the rap fit in better. I can't make my own beats (or even do loops), so I am not sure how good it would sound without that. But, I can give it a try once you have a chorus done.

I already wrote a song though last night to fit the Lunkhead music. I just need to record it today. It is a typical hard rock song, no rap or humor. I will post it here once I am done. It is the first rock song I have ever done, so I am not sure how well it will turn out.

- Eric

if you have a computer, you should be able to make beats with software. check out this thread for some suggestions of good programs.
give it a try!
-bill

impulse wrote:That is just the way Rap/Hip-Hop music works.

I'm sorry, I thought the way rap/hip-hop worked was "clever arranging of previously recorded songs to make something new" rather than taking "music that is already written and recorded by someone else and add your rapping over the top without modifying the music in any way". Am I wrong?

There is a big difference between "sampling" which is taking a sample from an oldere song and putting it into your new song, and "beats" which are like what people offer at http://www.soundclick.com/genres/Charts ... bgenre=192 . These are not songs, and are made specifically for rappers to use to make songs out of.

- Eric

I'm sure there is a big difference, but that doesn't really answer my question.

Hey Eric, I just down loaded the 30 day free leaf drum trial that Hoblit recommended in the thread that HeuristicsInc posted up yahw^^^ , and I have to say, even with the stock drum sounds to get started, sound great. It look me about 15 minutes to D/L the trial, and make some really good beats. The stock drum sound would work good for an old school rap sound, but you can import real drum sounds too. Very easy program to use.

The vast majority of rap / hip-hop has nothing to do with "clever arranging of previously recorded songs to make something new". Maybe 1% of songs are like that.

How is it any different for me to take a basic beat made by somebody else ahead of time for me, and use that as the background for my song, than if you are the lead singer of a band and you write a song and have your band make the music part to go with it? I look at it like the beat makers are similar to studio musicans, providing the music for me. I still write the melody of the song and the lyrics. I don't just add my rapping over it. The way I rap it is what makes it into a song.

This would not be true if somebody gave me a Whitney Houston or even Bon Jovi type backing track, since that music is a real song even without the vocals. Whitney would do a much better job than me, but the basic song would still sound the same no matter who does it. With hip-hop beats, every version is totally different. Have you ever heard songs that sound like mine?

- Eric

the big difference is that your band is presumably making the music for that song for that fight... this is very non-songfighty, if you ask me.
-craig

How about this example. I decide to make my own music for the next songfight entry, so I record my lyrics to one of the pre-recorded beats on my Casio keyboard (or even maybe from drum machine software). Is that allowed? If so, isn't that the same as what I am already doing?

Those Casio beats don't give you a song, it is just something to use as background music for a song you want to create.

I actually have used drum machine software before to create a background beat for my songs, but they sound pretty boring that way. Here's an example of one I made with a drum machine beat:
http://nerdcoresongs.com/hardcorelove.htm (it is a hip-hop love song to my wife).

- Eric

To continue this discussion, we'd be straying way into 'spirit of the law' vs. 'letter of the law' territory. I think it's lame, but if we're being forced to listen to it I'd probably prefer it to sound as little like 'hardcore love' as possible.

-craig

Can't honestly say I like this idea, but do what you like. It'll probably be tough to sample from this song though.

I don't want to sidetrack this thread anymore, but I think the distinction people are trying to make is between:

A) taking a whole instrumental track as is, and just adding lyrics/vocals to it (which is what it sounds you want to do with the Otalgia song in this instance, as far as I can tell)

and

B) taking some pre-made beats (which presumably are just short loops, right?) or samples of sections of a song, assembling them together into a new structure, then adding new lyrics/vocals

In the first case, you're in a real gray area. The intsrumental track wasn't written before the "Pink Ribbon" title was announced, so it isn't forbidden by this rule:

"Songs written before the title was announced are not eligible for competition."

But is the instrumental track a "song" already, without any vocals? If so, then you adding vocals on top could be interpreted as doing a cover, which would be forbidden by this rule:

No covers are allowed, unless you are so creative with it that we can't tell it's a cover.

If it's not a cover, then it's OK, I guess, right? Still, I think many of the people posting here are basically saying that they think it at least violates the spirit of the rules, even if it's not explicitly forbidden.

It seems like writing the lyrics and then singing the vocals for Otalgia song would not be appropriate for a SongFight entry, because even without lyrics it is still in the structure of a real song already. But, I think rap / hip-hop beats are a little different because those are not really in song format.

JR, if you're not into it, they're your drums, I think you'd have the right to say, "No, you do not have my permission to use my recording for your song." I didn't mean to speak for you, sorry if I did.

I don't want to be a dick and say it's OK then change my mind, but I think I'd like to maybe change my stance from "go ahead and do whatever you like" to "go ahead and use it for a song, but don't post it in the fight".

I just got some vocals from Starfinger that are awesome, but I'm probably still not going to enter the song since it's so late and I've already posted it publicly and in my mind it's still not done.

I agree, I wasn't going to use it for a songfight song. I already wrote a song called "I Confess" to it last night. I am working on recording it today.

I will of course give full credit for the music like:
MC Eric B with Lunkhead on Bass and Guitar and Jolly Roger on Drums