The Song Fight Bulletin Board

I just set this to expert and failed through thousands of yen until I figured it out.

Luckily, they're coming out with something similar in the US soon.

I meant to post this the other day. This guy does a lot of John Bonham lessons. It helps to actually watch someone play to learn.
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He has a bunch, just look for all of his lessons.

Sometimes I hate my job (see recent thread where I had to prove a kid plagiarized a piece of music after her parents went ballistic on me). Other times I love it. Like right now because a) I'm not currently working and b) I started a one-week class today called Intro to Playing the Drum Set which will earn me three grad credits for playing the drums eight hours a day for the next five days and I don't even have to pay for the class!

The guy teaching it is awesome (http://www.dicciani.com) and everyone in the class has his/her own brand new Yamaha drum set, which we have the option to buy at a drastically reduced "used instrument" price at the end of the week.

And, not to re-open a can of worms, but this guy says to never practice drums with a metronome. I say that only because others have given the opposite advice and I think are many professional players and teachers who oppose this view.

frankie big face wrote:SAnd, not to re-open a can of worms, but this guy says to never practice drums with a metronome. I say that only because others have given the opposite advice and I think are many professional players and teachers who oppose this view.

Really? Did he say why? Do you as a music educator agree?

Ken

ken wrote:

frankie big face wrote:SAnd, not to re-open a can of worms, but this guy says to never practice drums with a metronome. I say that only because others have given the opposite advice and I think are many professional players and teachers who oppose this view.

Really? Did he say why? Do you as a music educator agree?

Ken

Um....yeah, he did, but I'd have a hard time paraphrasing him right now. When it comes to drum set and especially recording and playing in a group, I do agree. When it comes to practicing scales and (maybe) rudiments and stuff or technical passages on your own, I would strongly encourage the use of a metronome. I think it depends on the circumstances and the performance goal.

Timing is everything for a good drummer, so some form of timing to learn with is important I would think.
My only thought for the instructor saying NOT to use a metronome would be because a metronome stays at one speed and one tempo. Maybe that's a bad habit to learn? *shrugs*
As I said, I would program elaborate loops on my drum machine and play it until I could play it perfect.

Billy's Little Trip wrote:Timing is everything for a good drummer, so some form of timing to learn with is important I would think.

I think that's the whole point. "Timing" is internal. You don't need an external source to tell you where the beat is. It's as natural as walking down the street (which is the exact example he used in class).

Ahhh, interesting. I like that thought. I've played with drummers that could have had electronic triggers strapped to their arms and still couldn't keep time to save their own life.

I think keeping a beat is one of those things like walking/swimming/riding a bike/etc. It feels totally natural once you've learned it and it can be hard after that point to conceive of not knowing how to do it, and for me it can be hard to figure out how to communicate to somebody how to do something that I learned more by intuition than instruction. I have a friend who I've tried to play music with many times and he just can't keep a beat, whether he's playing alone or in a group. I don't know what else to tell him other than to play to a metronome, and practice just staying with the beat. What would you recommend as painfully remedial rhythm training for somebody like that?

Lunkhead wrote:What would you recommend...for somebody like that?

Rock critic. (Ba-doom *crash*)

If he can walk across a room in steady time, he can probably keep a beat on the drums. It seems to me (after my ONE day of training ) that the key is getting at least two limbs (for example both arms or both legs) to feel completely automatic (like walking) so that you can concentrate on just the rhythm in the next limb that's added. For example, I was able to do more complex things with my bass drum after I established my arms enough to forget about them. The instructor compared it to having a conversation while your walking down the street: your legs are carrying out a voluntary action, but your not thinking about walking; your focus is on talking and maybe gesturing with your hands, etc.

I'm sure every drummer already does this and you perhaps have suggested this, but I think playing along to records is better than a metronome. (It's certainly more fun.) I don't think I could give much more advice to your friend without hearing him, but keeping things simple is always good advice.

I have done extensive metronome studies. There are rhythmic techniques I have learned that I just wouldn't be able to do without that study, like switching between groups of 5's and nines over a quarter note pulse. I've recorded with clicks, and without. I never use clicks live, or at jams. I use them all the time when recording... there is a time and place for either approach. A metronome is not critical for learning drumming. Unless, that is, you suck so bad at timing, or are trying to learn advanced timing. I never start kids on a metronome though... it's just too difficult, and really , you got to have some skills before you do that... at least, that's my opinion.


that being said, I think your instructor certainly has a good point, except I ABSOLUTELY disagree with the whole "never" comment. That's irresponsible. Feel free to give him my email if ya tell him... although it certainly isn't necessary.

the point previously raised along the lines of:

Master Lunkhead wrote:I think keeping a beat is one of those things like walking/swimming/riding a bike/etc. It feels totally natural once you've learned it and it can be hard after that point to conceive of not knowing how to do it,

Is a valid perspective as well.


I have taught many kids... some pick up on stuff quickly and naturally. Most can "keep a beat" just fine. Some CAN NOT.

Also, if you are going to be involved in music production on many levels, you would require the SKILL of playing to a metronome, as much music is quantized or chopped up and moved around and that SKILL would facilitate this much easier. It's one thing to have a good internal groove, quite another to play in time to a click...specifically because you have to NOT respond to your emotional perspective to play to a click accurately.

In fact, I am very curious about two things here:

1. did he really say "never"?

2. What then, does he recommend a player in a studio setting should do to play to a click track accurately?




I sometimes like to take old tunes I learned as a kid, and I load 'em into cubase so I can get a tempo setting, then I "re-create" the tune. Some bands, like Zeppelin, where there is no click track, line up beautifully to a metronome, cause Bonham was soooo goood. I took an old favourite, "wildflower", by the Cult, and was blown away by the inaccurate timing. Now, the song feels good, it works good, but that drummer was crunching up his shots on the "and' of 4, and it slightly accelerates the tune! Breaks in the song would last on a feel basis. It was very interesting, because on one hand, to play along, you have to start anticipating what the hell this guy is on, or what emotional point of view existed to cause that to happen, but on the other hand, when I listened to it as a 14 year old, it rocked hard, and it still rocks!!! My conclusion is that there is a time (punny) and place for the use of a metronome... versus how one feels and hears the collective time of a band, or just their internal rhythm.

Never practice to a metronome? Sounds irresponsible, incomplete, or both. Learn to keep time to your internal clock? Definitely a good idea. IMO.

Respectfully (and I really mean that--I'm not saying it sarcastically to be disrespectful), I'm not interested in getting into a deeper discussion about this. The last time I got involved in a click track discussion, I got two super fucking nasty PMs from one of your mates and I'm not interested in going down that path again. If I think about it, I'll try to get some clarification from Marc tomorrow, but otherwise, I'm gonna sit this one out.

Ok... I hope you know that I find the whole idea very interesting, personally, so I'm not out to fry ya!

I view improvement as change... you can't improve if you don't change, so I'm genuinely interested, and it just happens to line up with a few things I've been noticing , as I hope I outlined in that wildflower story...

I do realize that me saying "it's irresponsible" comes off like an absolute, which is akin to saying "all absolutes are wrong" or some such thing...


but whatever. I appreciated the parts you shared, and if you find out what I asked, and you can be bothered to pm me about it, I'll appreciate that too!

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I like drums! 8)

Okay, so I wanted to make sure I wasn't misrepresenting anything Marc Dicciani said in class on Monday so I asked for some clarification today. I asked him to confirm that he never uses metronomes with his students and he said yes, that is true. We talked about it a bit and he said he really has never had a student who couldn't keep steady time or, if they couldn't, it was due to some other problem, usually conceptual, that they were able to work out and which could not be addressed by a metronome. I asked him if there is ever a time he would use a metronome and he said (paraphrasing) "if/when the student needs to learn how to play to a click track for recording." But he said this would be maybe in the third year (I think he meant a college junior, not third year of drumming) and it would be like a lesson or two and that's it. He acknowledged that his thoughts on this are not necessarily conventional or popular and that many drummers and teachers would disagree with him. But, in his teaching, the emphasis is clearly on feel, communication, and song form. (my observation) He doesn't ignore technique, but I don't believe it's his highest priority. By the way, he does use plenty of other devices with steady beat (practice tracks with just bass lines or bass and piano) so it's not like his students work in some kind of metronomic vacuum. Anyway, the class is great and I'm really enjoying playing drums.

Also, here are the answers to everyone's drum questions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCzW4fVRViI

My biggest regret is not having a band to play with. I sometimes rough out songs without a rhythm track of some kind (usually loops) but usually I go straight to final tracks anyway so there isn't really a concept of a "rough take" without a drum track. Since I am not a drummer, and I don't have a drummer, I must use loops for the arrangements I usually go for.

I miss free playing, especially live with other people, since thats where it really lives and you can play with time in the organic manner that time plays with us. I need to play around with this "swing" setting stuff which I have never employed.

frankie big face wrote: Also, here are the answers to everyone's drum questions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCzW4fVRViI

He's got the left foot of God and blows my head right off my neck.
This is a great vid, lmao!