The Song Fight Bulletin Board

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it was unfair. I was just stating the obvious, that the panel's tastes will effect the results to some degree. I definitely prefer being voted on by five long time SongFight! dudes than an by anonymous friend flooder. (Unless one of the dudes is Johnny Cashpoint, who obviously has it in for us. )

I don't think that the judges were biased. I would like to clear that up.

I was specifically addressing the folks who often comment on how "Chick" music isn't their thing...which is a matter of taste (I hope). It's just hard to get over that kind of comment some times. Not so much in this fight, but SF! in general. I can actually think of several reviews that have alluded to this "chick" genre thing.
I felt like this particular panel of judges was very sympathetic to our sounds. Also, knowing a bit about Ken, Glen, and Ben's...(weird rhyming thing) taste in music, I was hopeful that we would last a few rounds. After all was said and done, I think the judges did an excellent job.
Maybe next year, I will have the pleasure of being one too!

Glen, I was so honored that we got a perfect score for round 5. (Thanks for reminding me!)

I really don't think that SF! is a sexist place, just one lacking in the ladies...that's all. There are a lot of ladies on the internet who know how to use a computer...so it's hard to understand why there are so few on these boards.

Songfight needs more Chic music!

<img src="http://www.anticoemoderno.it/Antico/Vin ... 0freak.jpg">

Le Freak, C'est Chic!

erin. wrote:Phew!
Maybe my participation in this will encourage more ladies to participate in the future. It's a tough thing being a lady in a dudes world. You guys are pretty fair, but I would have to say that as diverse as you might seem to be, I would urge you to actually see how many female artists are featured in your personal music collection compared to the rest.

Amen! And then the boys will reply with "Oh, but see, we like female vocals! I like female singers!" and it's like, 'well, yeah, but that's not the point.' If you hear a female vocal on SF the reviewer is likely to go "Oh wow, a girl!" which is both a blessing and a curse. Music is primarily a man's world, but there are still lots of women popping up. However Songfight, and all the sidefights, are completely male-driven. Name five 'big name' female SFers. Me, Erin, Rachael, Heather, and...? And most of them(well, all but me) are here with their SOs. Name five 'big name' male SFers. There are tons. I'm not sure that it's biased in one particular way, but the male/female thing is still definitely there. I don't think that that makes much sense, but whatever.

Lunkhead wrote:Seriously, though, while I think we had a slight uphill battle in terms of genre bias, I think the same could be said of many other participants to varying degrees, thanks to the diversity of opinions of the judges. I also think that some people had a better shot to go farther thanks to the diversity of the judges. That's the nature of the panel, in that the results will reflect the panel's tastes, at least to some degree. (Like if Bjam had been on the panel Plat would have made the finals. ) I'm fine with that, and I think that's way better than the results being based on some friend flooding asshole.

Now now, I just threw my support behind music that I enjoy. I was actually thinking of chosing Merisan(I should've, you guys went further ) but I figured you'd find that weird. Cow Exchange is already weird enough. Next year we need it to be like college sports where each college has supporters and people get all into their team. More team unity is needed at Songfight! Go team! Yeah! Go Fighting Songwriters! (Songwriters must be better than my school mascot[a wagon. A wagon! Worst school mascot ever.])

Next year I probably won't be able to do Nur Ein again(internship in England, woo!) so I definitely like Lunkhead's idea of having a similar thing again in the year.

Anyway. I keep posting in the Nur Ein threads even though I'm not in it. I feel like a spy.

B-Jam!
You rule.
You are so right about the team thing. But maybe that's a female thing to want to be supportive. I tried the "I will destroy you" attitude, but it just wasn't working for me. I know that is what NUR EIN! is sort of about but....


I think what you do is even harder, because you are doing it all yourself. I rely on the engineering know-how of my collaborator....while you are doing it all on your own (except maybe some help from Stewart from time to time).

I give you major props for being such a major female presence on the boards.


NUR EIN!

Bjam wrote:Music is primarily a man's world, but there are still lots of women popping up. However Songfight, and all the sidefights, are completely male-driven.

Music is not a man's world, but the Internet and computer industry seem to be. So, if you are a woman and the primary outlet for your music is free Internet music sites, you are likely to encounter more men than women.

So true...so true.


There are many female and male musicians that do not participate in this type of forum, nor do they even know that it exists.

Too bad for them....
And less competition for me!

frankie big face wrote:

Bjam wrote:Music is primarily a man's world, but there are still lots of women popping up. However Songfight, and all the sidefights, are completely male-driven.

Music is not a man's world, but the Internet and computer industry seem to be. So, if you are a woman and the primary outlet for your music is free Internet music sites, you are likely to encounter more men than women.

Exactly on the second part. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, I'm just saying that's what it's like. However, 'music is not a man's word'? Really? I dunno about that. There are plenty of females in the music industry, and obviously many female music listeners(primarily I'm talking North America, but in most places of the world I would imagine it's a similar scenario), but there are still way more men than women.

It also seems that some of the bigger female artists here are pretty darn good, too. Quality versus quantity argument again? I like hearing female voices and perspectives and what not as much as a guys. While it's not so black and white, it's either good music or bad regardless of gender. Isn't it?

Again...it comes down to taste.
My original argument wasn't that men don't like my music...it was that they said..."I don't usually dig the chick thing". I can handle it if someone says "Your song sucks".
I think it's nice that perhaps some folks edit their opinions to be nice, but really. If you're going to use the term "Chick music"...then please be prepared when I say your music sounds like "date-rape-rock", or "pointless guitar wanking".
I'm not addressing any one personally ...just for example sake.
And really, I'm not trying to complain. I just wish there were more ladies representing!
Good or bad.

Bjam wrote:I am officially becoming a supporter of The Bovine Recyclery! I should've chosen Merisan! More team unity is needed at Songfight!

Phil. Redmon. wrote:It's my solemn duty to concede and whatnot

/

Glenn Case wrote:Merisan has been eliminated.

(I thought this track was on a sure-fire one-way ticket to next round)

Round 6 =

For what it's worth: I was, if anything, a little surprised how often my opinions lined up with mo's, especially in the later rounds. He's the only judge I've never met and I hardly know a thing about the dude. That's how it goes, I guess.

Well, you're in Boston, I'm from Lexington. That's gotta mean something.

Here's what I wrote to the other judges when I submitted my votes(slight additions):

I thought this was an interesting experiment. Although the FBF entry's production values are surprisingly well below the other two and in my opinion, there a lot of things I don't necessarily agree with, I think it is the most successful long song of the bunch of them--i.e. It would suffer if cut down to 5 mins or 4 mins (although cut down to just over 6 would probably work). The song actually goes through a bit of a musical and emotional journey.

The Merisan song is gorgeous and haunting, with a very good choice of vocal arrangement and mixing. But honestly, it really gets monotonous. The song doesn't really develop and gain a greater depth through arrangements or structure as a result of the challenge. (The lyrics are pretty good, but yeah, this song really wants to be like 3 and a half minutes)

Puce's "Last Hope" is a rollicking ditty that kept me from being bored, certainly, but because he started out with a faster bpm, he had the most opportunity to change moods and tempos. However, I didn't really feel like the song takes the opportunity of more time to explore a range of musical and emotional options the way that Frankie's does.


Now back to the present...: I think there's very little doubt that the rock music industry overall (almost all genres) is dominated by male and masculine-oriented acts. Hip-hop, yes. Jazz, probably, with a greater appreciation for female vocalists. Folk, probably getting closer to even. I'm just guessing based on experience though.

I'm willing to admit that I probably have a bit of bias, because I tend to like music with a kind of aggressive tension to it, which appears more in traditionally "male" music. I love PJ Harvey, although I am very up and down about particular Ani DiFranco songs. I was a Breeders fan, hated Hole. Liked a bunch of Liz Phair songs off that first Exile in Guyville album. My attraction to Gwen Stefani is more based on her face and figure than actual music. (Can you guys tell I'm just flipping through my ipod now?) So yeah, I just contradicted myself a bit. Sorry.

I do find that it is happily welcome and sadly rare to find songwriters of any stripe who go beyond the usual boundaries, and that songfight tends to attract people who are willing to experiment a bit and who (in a good sense) have no shame, i.e. can put themselves on the line a bit.

At the same time, people sometimes have a hard time judging beyond genre. Some people hate jazz for some reason. All jazz, without listening to it. Same with chick rock, so-called. Same with hip-hop. That's just pride fuckin' wit you. Humans like to group off and feel like parts of individualized communities. I feel, in a lot of ways, that being an artist in whatever field is a matter of trying to stand sideways (not necessarily above or below) from your communities and describe something about them. Sometimes that pisses people off.

Anyway, I've been meandering trying to figure out how I'm going to close the Rant of the Day (tm), so let me just end with this:

FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELINGS
NOTHING MORE THAN
FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELINGS

Plat wrote:

Bjam wrote:I am officially becoming a supporter of The Bovine Recyclery! I should've chosen Merisan! More team unity is needed at Songfight!

Ahem.

Bjam wrote: I was actually thinking of chosing Merisan(I should've, you guys went further)

You are messing with my words Mister Plat! I stood fully behind BoRe during Nur Ein, it was only prior to my announcing my support that I was considering Merisan. It's like Mitt Romney going "Man, I wonder if we really came from monkeys, that would be kinda cool... Anyway! God!" And then in a few decades maybe Romney will go "damn... should've stuck with the monkeys; that theory's turned out a little better" Not that I'm drawing comparisons between Merisan and monkeys and BoRe and God.

Long Live BoRe?

!

How come when BLT posts it says it's Plat?

Is that an "over use of smiley" joke?

Wonderful job done on Nur Ein again by Niveous and his helpers.

One suggestion I would add for future is - to maintain some diversity of judging - ensure that amongst the judges is at least one non-North American and at least one non-male (NB - these must be at least two people - ie. you can't just appoint Bjam as judge and say she fills both requirements. The same goes for Johnny Cashpoint).

NBB - I have absolutely no complaints re. this years judges, they did a wonderful job (except of course for Judge 3. He is obviously insane ) - I am just suggesting that as a mechanism to promote a diversity of opinion and possibly address some of the things Erin mentions above

Erin said:

I think it's nice that perhaps some folks edit their opinions to be nice, but really. If you're going to use the term "Chick music"...then please be prepared when I say your music sounds like "date-rape-rock", or "pointless guitar wanking".

You know Erin it's VERY sexist of you to say "pointless guitar wanking" as if it's something decidedly masculine. In the early 90's I was a groupie of a band called Jambay (I've gone to like 150 shows), and one of my biggest influences was/is Shelley Doty (http://www.shelleydoty.com/). She can pointless guitar wank with the best of them, plus she's got edge and a great voice etc....
Also I just saw one of the best drummers I've ever seen in a band, the woman from Cornelius.

I really don't think singing/guitaring/bassing/drumming/and all the rest should be or is gender biased.

1st time I met Camille Davila (http://www.camilledavila.com/) upon learning she was a musician and without hearing her music I assumed her influences were all the Lilith gals of the time, and told her as much. She tore me a new one and informed me her influences were Bowie and King Crimson.

Women in music rule, so do men! It doesn't matter!

HaHa!
NUr Ein! was full of pointless guitar wankery...and that's why it's so special!
No really, I was just trying to make the point that I didn't like male/female genre labeling.
Yes, women can wank too.
And you must admit that there is not a lot of female guitar wankery on SF!.
Did I mention the word "wank"?

Nur Wank!...is the next side fight incarnation!
Thanks for the inspiration Glenny.
My discussion about male/femal genre labeling was specifically aimed at SF! (And then, specifically aimed at the folks that don't like my music.)
C'mon folks, can't we all just get along?

erin. wrote:Nur Wank!...is the next side fight incarnation!

I hope you pronounce it "noor vaaank."

Lunkhead wrote:(Unless one of the dudes is Johnny Cashpoint, who obviously has it in for us. )

I don't have it in for you. Were you better I'd sing your praises.

EDIT:

I didn't get to read this whole thread because I'm in Chicago and in the middle of class.....

But I just wanted to quickly say that I have tons of female artists in my record collection. I love Rasputina, Made Out Of Babies, In This Moment, Be Your Own PET, Tori Amos, PJ Harvey, Paramore (they're really growing on me), CSS, The Go! Team....so many others. I actually had to say to myself- Don't be prejudiced because Erin's voice is so superior to FBF and Puce's.

In the end, 6+ minutes was a lot. Frankie did the most with his song. Puce kept me the most interested. That left Merisan on the bottom. But just like last year- the final 3 was ridiculously strong. Merisan, FBF and Puce, you four are all awesome. Thanks for being a part of the Nur Ein and making such great music.

Gotta run back to class. See ya back here tomorrow.