The Song Fight Bulletin Board

Hell, man, I put vacation in quotes. Thanksgiving break? Oh, wait, it's later in the week. Never mind. I don't have a calendar in my computer room... postpone that previous post for a week or so, eh?

I only get two days - either way.

QotD: I'm not bothered by someone who puts together awesome sounds and arranges it in wonderful ways. I'm grateful. They probably don't even call themselves musicians. Back to the "does it matter" vein. I consider certain scratch artists musicians. I wonder about "chance" music, or "captured" music, where someone takes credit for basically labeling something their creation. But where someone conscientiously "composes" or arranges sound...sure looks like a musician to me.

Look up the definition of music and at least one will be something like: arranged sound. Luddites may say that those sounds can only come from the human voice trained in classical technique or classical orchestral instruments in order for it to be music. And must be composed in the western modes, or whatever other rules make sense to them. Some people also feel you need to work hard to make music and anyone who seems able to simply pump it out is a fake. Huh?

Then again, I hear music in nature, in subways, in traffic, in sex.

Tonight I went to the launch party for the book "CREEM: America's Only Rock 'N' Roll Magazine". Lots of old rock and rollers and some pretty flashy girls. A guy I know is behind it and they're starting up the magazine again. Could be interesting.

Went to class, packed a suitcase, set an alarm for hella early to catch a plane tomorrow.

Oh, and managed to find time to watch a lot of TV in the meantime.

QOTD: I don't think it's possible for someone without some kind of talent to produce "really cool, awesomely dynamic music" in "less than ten minutes," no matter what tech he has at his fingertips. If you're talking about loops, like the music beds you get with GarageBand, then yeah, it's kind of a problem, but not much more than the loops that come preprogrammed on most keyboards these days. And maybe these beds are great, awesomely dynamic music, but the self-proclaimed musician wasn't the one who made it, is he? Plus, you only need to hear two songs that use the same bed and the entire illusion comes crashing down. It's happened on Songfight before.

I'm reminded of something Brian Eno once said on this very subject. I can't find the quote (Roymond?), but the jist of it was that he doesn't care either, because most people who dick around with loops like that, even if they wind up producing something that sounds nice, usually wind up with a finished product that has no soul. And if there's no soul to the music, it's because no one bothered to put it there.

So yeah. Maybe computers have made it too easy to create music. But nothing will ever make it easy to create genuinely good music.

röymond wrote: Then again, I hear music in nature, in subways, in traffic, in sex.

Who was it who argued that the strong emphasis on the second and fourth beats (characteristic of that "Rock and Roll" music the kids seem to like so much these days) was basically intended to be a musical imitation of the rhythm of sex? Some nutjob I'm sure.

fluffy wrote:Editing and arrangement IS a legitimate musical skill. It belittles the skills of a producer to say that it's not "real." It still takes a good ear and a talent to know what musical elements go together to be able to make music that way.

this pretty much sums it up perfectly for me.

keep in mind that while technology has given just about anyone tools to create, doesn't mean just a bunch of tools are creating.

technology has opened lots of new and interesting doors for already talented musicians and songwriters. take beck for example.

also roy, i LOVED creem as a kid. thats pretty cool.

Boy Howdy!

Generic wrote:

röymond wrote: Then again, I hear music in nature, in subways, in traffic, in sex.

Who was it who argued that the strong emphasis on the second and fourth beats (characteristic of that "Rock and Roll" music the kids seem to like so much these days) was basically intended to be a musical imitation of the rhythm of sex? Some nutjob I'm sure.

Sadly, it's more from nature, subways and traffic I hear these days, at least in the "ensemble" arrangement.

jack wrote:
keep in mind that while technology has given just about anyone tools to create, doesn't mean just a bunch of tools are creating.

Are you calling the users of the software "tools"?? hahah...


Hey. A person can have an awesome laser sighted skilsaw, or a handsaw... neither makes them a carpenter by trade.

When they build an awesome house though, regardless of their job title, OR tools, it's an awesome house... by the terms of the person defining what is awesome, of course...


People get confused when they look at houses... they don't take the time to realize that different occupants have different needs though... so the value of the house is different from occupant to occupant..
Does it stand up to weather and time... does it define your lifestyle, bring comfort, security, does it set you apart?

The job title of the builder is not important to the function of the house. The tools used to build it are not important...and obviously the meaning is unique to the user...

One mans' castle and all that....


I find it interesting to read the comments on "what irks" different musicians... what irks me is having the tools, the ideas, the skills to do what you want..but no time to do it. Yeah. That irks. I'd be happy to have people criticize the intent or awesomeness or lack there of...cause that'd mean I actually made something.

fluffy wrote:Since when does Paris Hilton have anythign to do with music?

Since this.

Oh. I thought people were just getting their divas confused.

Leaf wrote:

jack wrote:
keep in mind that while technology has given just about anyone tools to create, doesn't mean just a bunch of tools are creating.

Are you calling the users of the software "tools"?? hahah...

not all users but you got my drift. sort of. my point was that not everyone using samples and loops is a musically challenged n00b.

also, hey leaf! long time no see!

It doesn't bother me so much about the technology letting people create music that wouldn't have been able to create.

The way I look at it, the technology acts as a multiplier to your skill set. For example, put a loop based program in the hands of Joe Schmoe and he'll be able to create mediocre music where once he couldn't. Put the same program in the hands of Stevie Wonder and your results will be better by a factor of 10. Take the technology away from Joe Schmoe and he'll just be a guy standing there. Take the technology away from Stevie Wonder, and he'll be a guy who can still sing the hell out of most anything.

A piano or guitar is technology too, I'm sure when valved horns were invented the natural horn players saw them as no-talent posers. http://tinyurl.com/37bcz6 We each draw our line in different places.

I'm sure that Bryan Adams, and all the members of bands such as Toto and Matchbox 20 are all very competent musicians who can play real instruments. It doesn't mean that they should.

Billy's Little Trip wrote:
Question for a Thursday:
Does it bother you to see new technology that allows a person with no musical ability, able to push buttons and drag and drop samples and make awesomely dynamic music, as well as voice programs and call themselves musicians?

It bothers me to see old technology that allows a person with ample musical ability, able play guitars and drums and stuff and make dull, bland music and call themselves musicians

Project-D wrote: A piano or guitar is technology too, I'm sure when valved horns were invented the natural horn players saw them as no-talent posers. http://tinyurl.com/37bcz6 We each draw our line in different places.

For that matter I remember when I first started playing guitar. I was heckled by older guitar players about how the electric guitar and effect pedals were just masks for people who couldn't play the acoustic guitar.

©aravan®ay wrote:I'm sure that Bryan Adams, and all the members of bands such as Toto and Matchbox 20 are all very competent musicians who can play real instruments. It doesn't mean that they should.

Billy's Little Trip wrote:
Question for a Thursday:
Does it bother you to see new technology that allows a person with no musical ability, able to push buttons and drag and drop samples and make awesomely dynamic music, as well as voice programs and call themselves musicians?

It bothers me to see old technology that allows a person with ample musical ability, able play guitars and drums and stuff and make dull, bland music and call themselves musicians

Dull, bland music is in the ear of the beholder. I can never figure out why people think Bob Dylan is so great, but apparently I have no taste and I couldn't possibly like the music that I enjoy listening to.

Billy's Little Trip wrote:

©aravan®ay wrote:I'm sure that Bryan Adams, and all the members of bands such as Toto and Matchbox 20 are all very competent musicians who can play real instruments. It doesn't mean that they should.

Billy's Little Trip wrote:
Question for a Thursday:
Does it bother you to see new technology that allows a person with no musical ability, able to push buttons and drag and drop samples and make awesomely dynamic music, as well as voice programs and call themselves musicians?

It bothers me to see old technology that allows a person with ample musical ability, able play guitars and drums and stuff and make dull, bland music and call themselves musicians

Dull, bland music is in the ear of the beholder. I can never figure out why people think Bob Dylan is so great, but apparently I have no taste and I couldn't possibly like the music that I enjoy listening to.

Not many people know this, but Bob Dylan's voice is actually computer generated. He was invented by NASA scientists in the early 1960s as part of the space program. If you watch him closely, you'll notice that his eyes never blink.

Hoblit wrote:

Project-D wrote: A piano or guitar is technology too, I'm sure when valved horns were invented the natural horn players saw them as no-talent posers. http://tinyurl.com/37bcz6 We each draw our line in different places.

For that matter I remember when I first started playing guitar. I was heckled by older guitar players about how the electric guitar and effect pedals were just masks for people who couldn't play the acoustic guitar.

Acoustic guitars are just masks for people who can't handle a lute.

Lutes are for people who can't handle <a href="http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=19808">hand farts</a>.

fluffy wrote:Lutes are for people who can't handle <a href="http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=19808">hand farts</a>.

Thank you so much Fluffy. You have just provided me with my topic of general office converstaion for the next month or so (the "having sex with bonobos" one wore thin long ago)